Permits

Re: Permits

Postby Mongoose » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:56 am

Dazz my friend, I'm just offering you some advice, and you don't need to get your panties tied up in a knot.

Take our advice, and listen to what we have to say..This isn't all just thumbsuck.
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Re: Permits

Postby Snakes4Africa » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:00 pm

This subject has been thrashed about before on this forum. Releasing snakes form a captive collection into the wild is not a good idea, how ever well-meaning it may be. I'm sure your intentions are good but the end result could be catastrophic if a disease gets out into the native population. Your collection includes exotic snakes and is in a state of constant flux due to new purchases and sales, as most of our collections are. As stated before, it is illegal in throughout most of South Africa to release snakes into the wild.
There will always be seasonal declines and explosions of certain populations and species in certain areas so don't believe that because you have noticed a drop in numbers that the end of a species is in sight. I have been responding to call-outs throughout Durban for longer than anyone currently doing it and can tell you that this true. "Herping" will yeild results different to my species count but will give you the same end results if done over a long enough period.
That being said, I applaud your efforts. The numbers that you are talking about are not really enough to make any substantial difference to populations one way or the other, as long as you are releasing the snakes in an area where they naturally occur, which I believe you are already doing. Just don't try to get permission or recognition from KZN Wildlife. They themselves do things that make us pull our hair out and wonder "what the hell!" but frown upon the public doing what you are doing.
My advice, continue doing what you are doind, do it under the radar and keep your exotic or permanent collection separate from the snakes planned for release. Furthermore, the keeping of snakes in a pit is fraught with potential disaster, so rather release them directly after their first shed.
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Re: Permits

Postby dazz » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:15 pm

I'm not trying to fight mongoose or getting my panties in a knot!(i wear boxers)i'm just saying that if i'm catching captive bred snakes 4 years down the line is that not proof that it is working bud?the numbers of snakes being released tho are getting larger due to the fact that we have been catching gravid females and using them so that the hatchlings are first generation babies and not second or 3rd..i do believe that i'm making an impact..and in a good way!
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Re: Permits

Postby Nasicornis » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:56 pm

joef_conner wrote:Go for it Dazz. Rather be critisesed for actually doing something.


Think before you speak and back up statements when you say someone is criticizing someone else. Don't be rude, state facts to back up an idea please. Lets be mature about this.
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Re: Permits

Postby atropos » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:01 pm

I see where you're coming from dazz all i ask is that you do your research first. Most of conservation today is considered disaster management of humans efforts from the past. If it was that easy don't you think more people would be doing it. I'm not saying don't look into it but just please be 100 percent certain before you do anything. The problem with waiting four years for proof is that it is uncertain. Perhaps it works but what if it doesn't and you wipe out your local population? Real controlled studies need to be done to avoid bias
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Re: Permits

Postby joef_conner » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:47 pm

Honourary Narstiecork I'm only trying to be encouraging. I think dazz is onto something and I want to support him.

And I'm sorry you find my comments rude??? Which is very strange to begin with. I do find it very ódd that alot of guys on this forum "shoot down" other members that want to make a difference.

I believe you should think twice before you comment. Why not PM me :)
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Re: Permits

Postby Matt Robinson » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Wow that was stupid. I have thought about also doing this but it is just like a quick fix. The public need to be taught that these animals deserve a place and that building can destroys many species habitats. You just have to keep doing the talks and educating.
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Re: Permits

Postby Wobbles » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:48 pm

dazz ,trust me bru. whether i agree or dont about what you are doing is not the important issue here. the fact that you go about ( without a gun to your head ) trying to educate people through talks etc. about reptiles is great. keep up the good work
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Re: Permits

Postby joef_conner » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:50 pm

matty watch your spelling and grammer.
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Re: Permits

Postby Wobbles » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:02 pm

forgot to mention. dont encourage people to just release snakes willy nilly into the wild. if you must just make sure they are fresh out the egg and havent had contact with your captive population.
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Re: Permits

Postby Bushviper » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:18 pm

Ther release of captive bred snakes is illegal in most provinces in South Africa and many of the States in the US for a good reason. The release of reptiles has been moniored by research facilities around the world and have a minute chance of success. Even if you can claim to have found your own snake 4 years later (via scale clippings or micro-chip) it could mean that it out competed another resident animal which had to make place for it. In gautneg they have even asked us to not release animals collected from sites which have under gone construction unless we can prove to them that the area where we are going to release them has a population that has undergone a decline but is still viable.

Pythons may not be bred or released unless you have permission from the minister of environmental affairs (not the province or KZN wildlife) and the penalty for this is up to R200 000-00 and or 20 years imprisonment. Pythons are plentiful and I have seen hundreds in the wild. There are far more species that are never seen and may be far rarer. The reason pythons have been protected is because of the skin trade and the muti trade.

Numerous populations of healthy animals have been contaminated by released "pet" animals. This includes the Cape parrot and many amphibian species. Go google the effects and then decide if you are being a threat to their potential existence in the wild. You have no idea what potential pathogens you could be introducing into a healthy viable wild population.
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Re: Permits

Postby joef_conner » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:18 pm

Wobbly dazz has done alot of research into this. I dont know why you and others assume that everyone, besides a select few, are complete novices. All dazz wanted was info on permits and he gets nothing but uphill from almost everyone on this thread. If you dont know anything about permits in KZN then he doesnt want to hear it. If you on the other hand do know anything about KZN permits then lets chat.

Lets keep this thread focussed.
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Re: Permits

Postby Snakes4Africa » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:52 pm

Joef, the mere fact that Dazz has to ask these questions is proof that he has NOT researched his subject properly. Wobbles knows his game and has offered nothing but true and honest advice. The reason that Dazz is getting uphill is simple: what he is doing is not a good idea for conservation, but satisfies the bunny-hugger in some of us.
I feel for his cause because he truly believes in what he is doing. I know him personally and am quite certain that he is big enough and intelligent enough to take or leave the advice given and decide for himself what course to take.
This thread is focussed!
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The same is true of those who continue to make the same mistakes.



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Re: Permits

Postby Buck Rogers » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:05 pm

Sorry to come into this at a late stage of the conversation.

I have to agree with Mongoose and a few of the rest on this topic. It took me a while to understand this and mongoose pushes this topic a lot, but it is not a good idea to "repopulate". And Joef and Dazz I know your hearts are in the right places (mine was too) but in this situation you need to think logically and not emotionally. There are more intelligent ways of helping and rescuing herps than relocating, and as a result other animal populations (amphibians, birds, mammels) are being affected. Natures cycle is very sensitive and playing god is risky business.

And guys please keep name call and childish behaviour to yourselves
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Re: Permits

Postby Copperbob » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:33 pm

I agree and its not a good idea to take a project of this magnitude on alone. This is best left to highly qualified professionals who take all the variables into account and know exactly what they are doing. An example of the dangers this can cause is that there may be a certain number of prey(food source) in a specific area, say 10 rats living in this area at any given time and 10 pythons that will eventually consume them. Now you are introducing another 10 captive born pythons into this area and well, Im sure you get the message.
There is much more to any re introduction process then just breeding and releasing a handful of snakes somewhere.
@Dazz Your heart is definitely in the right place but you need to get in contact with Nature conservation or who ever else is involved with the introduction of species and put your ideas forward.

@Joef Please behave yourself! :)
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