Hybridizing garters

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Hybridizing garters

Postby vinnige_fanie » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:40 pm

Hi everyone,

I hope not to offend anyone with this post, but I did it.
I know this topic have been discussed over and over... and over, but those are general.
For example I am against cross breeding boas to pythons, kings to corns etc..., because the entire biological structure is wrong.
For example:
Garters, the tree:
Family ~ Colubridae; Subfamily ~ Natricinae; Genus ~ Thamnophis
Then, species ~ chequered = marcianus - and - red sided = sirtalis; subspecies ~ parietalis.
Aka. Same family, subfamily, genus.

Boas and pythons for example:
Red tail boa = Boidae boinae boa constrictor
Burmese python = Pythonidae python molurus bivittatus

Totally different, both are from suborder Serpentes, but that is how far it goes.

That is for example like constrictor girl said in another thread, us and chimps.

What I did was “us” South-Africans, and Chinese.

Anyway, what I did:

I have 2 adult chequered garter females gravid with a red sided male garter’s offspring.
I have searched all over to see what these will look like, but can’t find any information.

I’m looking for some info from Graeme or some of the guys keeping garters.

All I know is that garters do hybridize in nature, but these 2 species are far and wide apart.
I just want your opinions.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby fredsmith » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:23 pm

I'd be intrigued to see what the off-spring look like indeed.

There are a couple of members on this site who find the whole concept of hybrids to be an abomination, but, by the same token there are some that are completely facinated by the idea.

There has been a board set aside for those who delve into the concept of hybrids. viewforum.php?f=152

The main concern or gripe most(IMO) would have is that an indigenous animal is or has been used. It's incidently also against the law by my understanding, some of the more senior members may correct me here if I'm wrong, to hybridize a local species with an exotic.
Exotic x Exotic = OK
Local x Exotic = Many people getting upset

Could you post a few pic's of the parents?
I'd love to see this thread updated in a bit with pics of the little ones vs their parents.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby vinnige_fanie » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:35 pm

Same here, also on some international sites they are 100% against the idea, they call it “creating a muddy blood pool” or something to that affect.
I read that post, but like I tried to describe the two different types of hybridizing according to me, this is not actually classified as hybridizing, I think Westley or Loui or someone some time ago clarified this, there is a different name for it.
The Boa theory is hybridizing, the garters not really, but I could not find that thread sorry.
I will post some photos of the parents and the babies as soon as they are born, the one female is due mid February this year, and I can’t wait.
:D
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby fredsmith » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:38 pm

vinnige_fanie wrote:different types of hybridizing according to me, this is not actually classified as hybridizing, I think Westley or Loui or someone some time ago clarified this, there is a different name for it.
The Boa theory is hybridizing, the garters not really, but I could not find that thread sorry.

"Intrgrade" is perhaps the word you're looking for?
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby vinnige_fanie » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:40 pm

Thanks, yes I think that's it.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby fredsmith » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:42 pm

Would it still be considered an intergrade even though the parents come from different ends of the globe?
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby vinnige_fanie » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:53 pm

I guess that is what I'm trying to ask now isn't it hehe.
I just made a book out of 1 line lol :) guess I have been researching and thinking and rethinking this whole endower for too long.
Where in jhb are you based Fredsmith? maybe if you like when they are born you can come have a look yourself.

I have some other projects on the go as well, maybe give your opinion on that as well.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby rolandslf » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:06 pm

v_f - That would be a Hybrid because of as you correctle stated, coming from two opposite sides of the Globe. Intergrades occur where natural territories overlap resulting in the two different species or sub-species naturally coming into contact with each other and breeding. In this case, tese two sub species would never naturally come into contact with each other. Man has brought about the physical contact creating a Hybrid.

That aside, when the babies are here, post pics. I for one would definitely be interested in a pair of those babies.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby vinnige_fanie » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:52 pm

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Will keep in contact, remember 20 Feb 2010 ;)
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby @ndy » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:38 am

Vinnige Fanie, I am also up for a set of babys please, I sent you a PM i will keep in contact with you.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby Bushviper » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:17 pm

You have seen mating between these species. If they have live babies then you can say you bred them. They should have babies but they might not. Dont get your hopes up too much at this stage.

It would be interesting to see.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby vinnige_fanie » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:08 am

They copulated for about 45min to an hour on the 20Nov 2010 around 8:00pm ~ 830pm (locked)
She is currently around 3 times the size than the other female which I put with the male in Dec, but they only copulated for a few minutes (5min being a lot)

I as well had my doubts, so I took all my female garters to a guy that has bred these before, and he took one look at her and I quote "there is definitely something happening there" haha

But as they say, don’t count your chickens before they hatch right.

So we we’ll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby sega » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:48 pm

Cant wait to see what the babies look like.I wouldent mind getting a pair of garters but i have never seen them for sale in the western cape.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby fredsmith » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 am

vinnige_fanie wrote:Where in jhb are you based Fredsmith? maybe if you like when they are born you can come have a look yourself.
I have some other projects on the go as well, maybe give your opinion on that as well.

I think I'll have to definitely take you up on that one, thanks Vinnige_Fanie.
I'm over on the East Rand, but we can hammer out the finer details closer to the time.
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Re: Hybridizing garters

Postby vinnige_fanie » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:04 pm

Hi again, been a while.

But they were born, 8 (sorry my mistake @ndy, I counted wrong the first time, quick little buggers)took her from around 5pm'ish to 1:30am the next morning I sat waiting until the last one was out, because she gave birth in her cage 14 days early!

Anyway, guys and girls, FredSmith and Roland please give me a shout, I have not yet had time to go online, been absolute chaos with work at the moment.

I will pm you my number.
Ps. I have not even gotten around to take pictures, but I will supply you with a basic idea... red sided garters head, body of a checkered, and from birth as big as one of Graems garters, so rather big for a garter. They have a line on the side that checkereds don't have, still cute and pretty :)

Thanks for all the interest guys.
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