Topic offshoot - Bitis Albanica faces extinction

[Copperbob]

This situation with B albanica is disturbing to say the least!
This might come across as a little OTT but doesn’t anyone else feel a duty to try and save these animals?
I would love to start a captive breeding, re-introduction to a conserved environment project for these animals but I don’t poses nearly enough experience or capital, never mind actually finding specimens to start with.
As a member a the largest South African reptile community, surly we can come up with something, like nominating someone who is worthy of the job and donating funds, which I would gladly do on a monthly basis in return for regular updates.
Maybe the SA reptile community could take this to the next level and start some sort of project.
We will all be kicking ourselves a few years down the line when B albanica is just a distant memory!
Any thoughts, especially from members who have had experience with this sort of thing?

[Rob]

Something like this would only really be allowed to be conducted by a University. I imagine that would be the only way if any, to obtain export permits for snakes like that.
Presuming you could even get the animals to begin with.

[armata]

Maybe more in depth surveys, i.e. Grahamstown, Addo. PE Museum have had all the contact plus natcon with the mining company, and cement is now in demand like never before.

Then again maybe something is being done via PE and I/we have just not heard about it.

[Rob]

I know there was a proposal put forward to the cement company regarding the conservation of the snakes but there was environmental documentation needed from them which they just never provided so the whole thing crashed.

Its such specialised habitat that albanica live in and unfortunately the substance the cement company is mining is integral to that.

[froot]

And I thought this was going to get a little heated. You guys had me fooled.
I reckon the best way would be to do the breeding in situ, as in to build a protective mesh enclosure over a large piece of habitat where at least one pair are known to inhabit. This could also double up as an opportunity to observe them in their natural state. Food for them may have to be introduced, and whatever else that would help promote successful breeding.
At least this way variables regarding stress, keeping conditions and husbandry can be eliminated.

[Bushviper]

Rob it makes you wonder who did the EIA which is required by law for any new businesses? Surely they can leave a decent section of the pristine habitat alone or allow the animals to be removed before they destroy them.

I am sure if you proposed to ensure that you removed all of those in the affected area and would only breed these in an area where there they would not come into contact with any others snakes the authorities would fall for it. Offer to return 50 percent of the babies to any habitat they identify and return the adults when (or possibly if) the habitat has been rehabilitated. The others should be your "payment" for looking after the ones you saved from the bulldozers. There is no harm in trying. Possibly they will give you a section of the current habitat to enclose and keep the specimens in till the destruction is over.

[Rob]

BV surely the area would be classed as private property and they are under no obligation to do anything at all? (Not including the EIA) There is some agreement regarding the land, I believe the people who own it basically allow the cement company to extract what they need from the ground, once they are done they will simply move off the land again. Ive seen it, the methods are very aggressive.
I know what youre saying though, no harm in trying. If I lived in the area and were able to get involved if allowed I most certainly would be.
I will chat to my mate from the area, he is in contact with the people there and maybe thats an avenue he can pursue. He is a vastly experienced herper with an interest in this.

[xerophak]

Xerophak, do you know Jose Brito? .

no, but I would like


I like to know everything in these programs. but we must be realistic
half of these funds would not believe that animals, like going to humanitarian aid, G8 can 5.000000 € but only 10% reach the needy
What can I think help to conserve animals?

[snakepeter]

I don`t know all details about situation down there over you, but I know at least how it was with Vipera ursinii rakosiensis in Hungary. Many years we were reading just articles about how rare they are in wild, about decreasing of their quantity etc. In every article they want to protect them in nature. Breeding in captivity was told as impossible...
Thanks God, then suddenly somebody came and said it`s not enough! Now there is established very good breeding programme in Hungary, where they procuce over 200 babies every year, what is very good proof it`s possible very well also under captive conditions. I am happy about it, as rakosiensis is very special snake species. It would be more as good to see such possitive future for many other animals, not just venomous snakes, resp. Bitis albanica in this case.
If we could be able to help with it in some way, I would surely go ahead with it...

[armata]

Here is the mining area.
IUCN need to catch up on the taxonomy as well, still know as subspecies of B.cornuta.

[Rob]

Peter that is very encouraging.
There is no reason why it cannot be done here with the right hands involved.

[armata]

I am glad that something positive is happening re Vipera ursinii rakosiensis - for years there was so much personal infighting and politics. Maybe they get to appear in Austria again one day??? I was lucky enough to see a couple in the wild a few years back.

To be blunt I think that for SA there will have to be a much improved relationship between NatCon and herp keepers. Thats a first step.
I think Froot may be on to something. We pulled sand lizard (Lacerta agilis) populations back in parts of the UK through breeding in outdoor enclosures; this is till ongoing.

But like I said there may be things between NatCon and PE Museum that we are not privvy to.

[Rob]

Tony, if by PE museum you referring to Bill Branch, he, along with my mate submitted a formal proposal to government to conserve the albanica here and it was simply ignored. So Im not sure Bill has any aces up his sleeve.
That friend intends posting his thoughts on the subject in the next day or 2. He has studied the area, soil, plants and subterranean rock and will give his opinion soon.

[BushSnake]

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, but breeding them or increasing the population size is not the same as conserving the species. Yes, you need the numbers to ensure the existance, BUT you also need to prove that the captive snakes can be successfully reintroduced to the environment. This means that they are capable of finding food and mates, but also that they will not be too vulnerable to diseases. I specifically remember the talk last year at the HAA where they proved that captive leopard tortoises were not able to adapt to a life in the field again. One reason was that they lose their immunity / resistance to some diseases and even though they eat well, they still die. So untill we know a lot more about them, the only real solution is to conserve the habitat...

[Rob]

BS I hear you. The problem here is simply that habitat preservation is pretty much not an option.
The cement companys promise to rehabilitate the area after mining in pointless because the minerals they are mining is what that particular plant type requires. Below the surface is also a myriad of tunnels made by piles of rock slabs, huge crevices exist under there and this is what they are destroying.
Apparently the soil is very shallow, then you hit the rock. That plant type exists there because it can survive in those shallow conditions.
How are they going to rehab that?
The best solution would be to allocate a portion of the land to a project but judging by their lack of participation in the past it would appear its not an option.