Death of the hobby part 2

[Bushviper]

On friday the 3rd of March 2009 the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism published the second round of draft lists of alien invasive species. These will be considered final and be written into law if there are no reasonable, scientifically founded, comments proving that these lists are incorrect or wrong in any way.

Very little has changed since 2005 (see viewtopic.php?f=20&t=616) and we were expecting some of this.

Now we all expected the authorities to list the following species as undesirable and needing strict control (which means you can apply for a permit but you will not get it unless you have an excellent reason)
They were:
Agama agama Agama, common
Anolis distichus Anole, bark
Anolis sagrei Anole, brown
Basiliscus vittatus Basilisk
Boiga irregularis Tree snake, brown
Chelydra macroclemys Turtle, alligator snapper
Geochelone sulcata Tortoise, Spur thighed
Hemidactylus garnotti Gecko, Indo-Pacific
Hemidactylus turcicus Gecko, Mediterranean
Hemidactylus frenatus Gecko, house
Leiocephalus carinatus Lizard, Northern curlytail
Macrochelys temminckii Turtle, snapper
Tarentola mauritanica Wall gecko, Moorish
Trachemys scripta elegans Slider, Red-eared
Ambystoma tigrinum Salamander, Tiger
Bufo bufo Toad, European
Bufo marinus Toad, marine / cane
Eleutherodactylus coqui Coqui, Puerto Rican
Eleutherodactylus planirostris Frog, Greenhouse
Litoria caerulea Treefrog, Great green
Notophthalmus viridenscens viridescens Newt, Red-spotted
Osteopilus septentrionalis Treefrog, Cuban
Rana catesbeiana Bull frog, American

We could probably live with that.

Plus a country wide "Invasive species requiring compulsory contro"(1A):

Python natalensis x Python molurus
Bitis gabonics X Bitis species
Unless otherwise listed all hybrids where at least one parent is an indigenous species.


Then there are two that we assumed they would eventually get excited about and list as requiring regulation by activity.
Iguana iguana Green Iguana
Gecko gecko Tokay gecko
This means you will not be allowed to breed, sell, donate, transport these animals without a permit (which I doubt you will get).

WHAT BLEW MY MIND WAS THAT THESE BELOW ARE LISTED AS 1A IN KZN. This means you will require a permit to import, possess, breed, convey, sell, buy, trade, recieve, give, donate, dispose of, or acquire any of the species listed below. Once again you will have to give an excellent reason for this. The permits cost from R50 to R200 for each "activity". This is the most restrictive legislation and is effectively a ban as this category includes birds such as mynah birds and fish such as grass carp which we all know nobody wants in the country.

Listed alien invasive species that require compulsory control in KZN:
Anolis caronilensis Green anole
Basiliscus plumifrons Basilisk, plumed
Bitis gabonica rhinocerus All Gaboon adder species
Bitis nasicornis Viper, rhinoceros
Brachylophus fasciatus Iguana, banded
Corallus enhydris Boa, garden tree
Crotalus cerastes Sidewinder
Crotalus durissus Rattlesnake, neotropical
Crotalus enyo Rattlesnake, Californian
Crotalus lepidus Rattlesnake, rock
Crotalus ruber Rattlesnake, red diamondback
Crotalus vegrandis Rattlesnake, Uracoan
Chamaeleo jacksonii Chameleon, Jacksons
Chamaeleo melleri Chameleon, Mellers
Dendroaspis jamesoni Mamba, Jamesons
Dendroaspis viridis Mamba, West African green
Dendrobates (all)
Elaphe mandarina Ratsnake, Mandarin
Elaphe porphyracea Ratsnake, bamboo
Elaphe taeniura Ratsnake, striped tailed
Furcifer oustaleti Chameleon, Oustelets
Furcifer pardalis Chameleon, Panther
Heloderma suspectum Monster, Gila
Lachesis muta Bushmaster
Liasis fuscus Python, water
Liasis mackloti Python, freckled
Morelia amethistina Python, Amethistine
Morelia boeleni Python, Boelens/Black
Morelia spilotes Python, carpet/diamond
Naja kaouthia Cobra, monocled
Ophiophagus hannah Cobra, king
Python molurus Python, Indian/Burmese
Python regius Python, Royal
Python reticulatus Python, reticulated
Rhacodactylus leachianus Gecko, New Caledonian
Spilotes pullatus Snake, chicken
Trimeresurus albolabris Viper, white lipped tree
Trimeresurus purpureomaculatus Pitviper, Mangrove
Tropidolaemus wagleri Viper, temple
Uroplatus fimbriatus Gecko, common leaf tailed
Uroplatus henkeli Gecko, Henkels leaf tailed
Uroplatus phantasticus Gecko, mossy tailed
Varanus komodoensis Dragon, Komodo
Varanus salvator Monitor, Indonesian water

Besides the fact that they have numerous incorrect scientific names the list is a joke. Certain species are almost impossible to keep in captivity without specialised care (mandarin ratsnakes are one that pops to mind) and their listing is ridiculous. Obviously we will be writing letters but it did not help a single bit the last time. These lists are unchanged despite numerous letters from our side because the "quasi?"-scientists employed by the provinces and state have the ministers ear and he does not hear anyone else.

If you intend to write then threatening or getting emotional is the quickest way to get them to ignore us or consider us to be lunatics. You need to plead your case in such a way that they can consider it and lay it before a committee. How are they supposed to consider a letter saying "well what about the nigerians/ cats/ pigeons?" or threats that you will release your reptiles into the wilds. This will just hack them off and they will be less inclined to listen to anyone from the reptile community.

This will kill the reptile industry in KZN but they have had it so good not requiring permits for indigenous reptiles for so long my sympathy is not over flowing. Seriously though, this is a threat to all of us not just KZN and has to be fought before it can be implimented and spreads through the country.

[Rishaad]

This is not good.

[hunter1]

How are they going to control this? What must everyone do who already has these species in their pocession?

[steve]

thats hectic! harsh one for the peeps in Kzn, bit of an over kill if you ask me, ish!

[Bushviper]

The implementation has not been decided on but the chances are good they will expect you to either apply for the permit or hand them to the state to be destroyed. If your permit is refused then I have no idea what they want you to do with them. This will be the surprise package when they implement the law.

This will be after the general election so lets hope the "hopefully" next minister will listen to sound reasoning. If not then I envision problems.

[froot]

Boelens Python LOL? Someone's brain is good for nothing but bait.

So basically if anyone and I mean ANYONE that has access to scientific information that proves that any of these species will not become invasive then please do not hesitate to send a diplomatic explanation to them with the scientific proof or if not send it to one of us who will do it for you, even if it's a species you have no interest in. Whatever you do, do not sit on something that can help us and do nothing about it!

[hunter1]

Just some quick thoughts,1 some people have alot of money invested in snakes, especially ball pythons, are they just supposed to lose their money? 2 People are not going to hand in their pets that they have had for so long to be destroyed, they would rather let them go in the wild, and take their chances. So its going to be abit of a losing battle for what ever they are trying to achieve.

[hunter1]

I dont think its on the list but I have a risk assessment for the african fat tail if you want that in your archives?

[dendroaspis]

1 some people have alot of money invested in snakes, especially ball pythons, are they just supposed to lose their money?

As an investment, the bank places R1 value on any one animal you have, regardless of what it is.

2 People are not going to hand in their pets that they have had for so long to be destroyed, they would rather let them go in the wild, and take their chances. So its going to be abit of a losing battle for what ever they are trying to achieve

.

Which is exactly the route of the problem. If that is how people are to react, then it would be better to not have exotics here at all.

[hunter1]

dendroaspis that will be a natural reaction of a human make up. Would you go, and hand over your kid to someone to kill?

[Serpy]

You've got to think logically about this, its not your kid. If I couldn't get permits for it, and my choice was to either release he animal causing who knows what or handing it over to be euthinased then i'll probably hand it over.

Doesnt mean I would be extremely happy about it

[BB Gabonica]

That list is absolutely ridiculous! As BV said, some of these snakes are incredibly diffucult to care for even when given a set-up similar to their natural environment...
And if Rhino Vipers, Bushmasters and Wagler's Vipers become a problem in KZN pls let me know. I'll be down there in a flash to thin out the invading population... With half of the other reptile keepers in this country joining me I'm sure...
But seriously, how would they monitor this? Unless you are a serious breeder and can be assured of getting a permit if you apply for 1, I would just keep quiet about my few snakes otherwise all you are doing is making them aware that you are keeping the listed species. They cannot possibly check every single house in the country for the snakes, lizards and amphibians listed...
I suppose the problem now is that these species are going to become rather difficult to obtain. Legally anyway...
It has been said before but as long as there are people out there who love snakes, the hobby will NEVER die!
Just my thoughts...

[fredsmith]

Eish!
Guess the amount of folk keeping snakes without permits is set to grow...

[dendroaspis]

dendroaspis that will be a natural reaction of a human make up. Would you go, and hand over your kid to someone to kill?

There is a difference between a snake and your child mate.
The point I am trying to make is that very few keepers are actually responsible keepers. Go to Gauteng Natcon and ask if you can see who has permits for their indigenous animals. It will be an eye opener. This is the point of view from Natcon.

While everybody hates Natcon, keep in mind that you are looking from a single perspective. Natcon does incredible work. While they don't know everything, keep in mind they work with all indigenous animals, not just reptiles. A lot of work goes unnoticed.
I understand the frustration, but its a matter of proving them wrong. This has been coming for a long time, and most people (myself included) thought "Someone will fix the problem". It was not a fair train of thought.
We are all in a position to help.
Writing here how difficult to keep your Rhino viper means nothing. But writing a proper journal with minimum husbandry requirements etc. and pooling it in a group of similar type journals to give to Natcon will make a difference.
The internet is a wonderful tool. Use it for more than surfing porn and snakes, and you will see how wonderful a tool it is. Get into contact with various people working with the animals you keep. Add the info you get from them to your journal.

There is much you can do, but can you expect Arno or someone else to do everything.

[deleray]

I for one am certainly not going to apply for any permits. By doing so you are putting yourself on the radar. People that keep these types of animals seriously are very quite about what they keep and who they tell (me included). I don't see anyone coming around to my house to check on what species I keep.

In terms of obtaining the animals, unless you are someone who is new to the hobby, I think they will always be available, just not advertised on message boards etc which is probably a good thing.