New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

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New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Natcon NC » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:54 am

Here is a link to the new proposed Tops regulations and Tops species list that was published for comments. Please look at it and provide your comments to the National Department of Environment.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=6 ... 74D52F!122
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Westley Price » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:18 pm

I will only comment on the reptiles. And I guess we all now know what the inspections/raids were for.

It's a bit strange to have Pachydactylus (I think they're back with Palmatogecko again) rangei on the list seeing as it is an exotic. You might as well have added B. peringueyi by the same token.

I am not sure I understand why all those new additions were made. I understand you guys checked the KZN collections to better assess which species are targetted most by illegal collectors, but protecting an entire genus (Pachydactylus) or a snake as common as B. caudalis is senseless. If you want to go this far, you might as well add every single reptile species in RSA to the list.

How will the guys who already keep these newly protected species go about getting permits?

I totally understand the reasoning behind the changes, but why not simply update the laws regarding keeping indigenous species in KZN, rather than do this? That would solve your problem in one foul swoop.
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Westley Price » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:55 pm

Okay, coming off the defensive a bit; here are a few comments relating to reptiles:

- Why is Ouroboros cataphractus not on the list?

- I do not think B. mentalis is an accepted species yet, so you will need to protect the entire capensis species.
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Bushbaby » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:00 pm

I don't have an issue with them putting everything on the TOPS but then they must not just target the keepers but also the sangomas and be willing to prosecute any person who kills a TOPS animal. Also, how are they going to handle the catching permits in our case? We do problem reptile removals. If we come across a TOPS animal, will we be allowed to remove it?

I don't think they really thought this through...
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Bushviper » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:58 pm

Once again the list was drawn up by people who are actually clueless. Green mambas and sungazers are afforded the same protection? One will probably be extinct in 20 years and the other (green mamba) is basically a common problem animal which nobody would be able to catch and release. This only leaves the home owner the choice of killing it. Way to go! Even though killing is illegal so is catching and releasing. You can claim self preservation only if you kill it. It takes a special kind of stupid to not envision the complication with implementation.

You are not allowed to catch green mambas and you are not allowed to import green mambas so how the F@##$$% are we supposed to get venom to produce antivenom.

All Pachydactylus? Surely they jest? I can imagine that hundreds of these are killed per day when there are new developments in Gauteng. I hope they intend ensuring this is enforced when their favourite benefactor is developing areas around Midrand. It is possibly the most common and wide spread genus of gecko.

Pachydactylus affinis now have the same protection afforded the white rhino !!! It is a pity swearing get censored on this site.

Clearly too many brandy and cokes when they decided over a braai what they dont want us to have. I cannot believe this was done from scientific studies.

Boaedon mentalis? Give me a break. Why not Swazi rock snake? I will just feed mine to the cobras or king snakes. Its not like they are wow snakes anyway.

I really could not care. Small adders do not do well in captivity so I am not unhappy about this. I guess driving over them is still a crime but nobody will ever be prosecuted.

The smugglers are loving this list because the value of the animals they have just skyrocketed. All animals already owned will have to be put on permit. The guys who collect the most between now and the implementation will be able to make a fortune. Way to go!!!

Protecting a Blesbok exactly the same as an Elephant. Seriously what were they smoking?
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Natcon NC » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:56 pm

I have just added the comments form to the link.

This is your opportunity to give comments on these regulations. You guys always complain about not having the chance to give input on these matters. In my discussions last week with some of the guys we inspected it was the same story nobody consults the industry. Your call has been heard and that is why I have placed it here. Now here is your opportunity as an industry to give your valuable knowledge on this legislation.

Please just make sure your comments are based on facts and if possible add the scientific references seeing there are a few problems, because by just making unfounded statements it will not be taken serious during the review process.
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby froot » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:52 pm

Please just make sure your comments are based on facts and if possible add the scientific references


Surely the people that formulated this draft proposal should lead by example in this regard? If we as an industry had any clout, on behalf of the industry I'd respond with 'Go back and bring us something reflects the required due diligence, why should we do your homework for you by responding with scientific reference?' This is not a go at you Natcon NC, and I appreciate you sharing this with us but seriously, if that's the kind of mentality you are prescribed to represent you have my deepest sympathy.
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Westley Price » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:19 pm

Image

I hope that's not a Clanwilliam Yellow Fish or we might be in some trouble ;)
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Eyelash » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:31 pm

Leon, thanks for sharing the list but if I may ask, who drew up the reptile section of the list supplied ? Is the person(s) actually qualified to do so ? And if so where can we find the scientific references he/she used to compile it ?

I can understand some of the animals being listed but some seem to be there just because "they can".
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Amphibian » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:04 pm

This has the flavour of spite.
An agenda combined with ignorance and authority is a lethal cocktail.
I would love to see the "scientific refrences" utilised when establishing this list. What is dissapointing is that it seems a very narrow point of focus has been used when looking at the various genuses, but then a broad application to each of the species within said genus. Almost as if it were a rush job done over a weekend.
There is little point repeating what has already been said by some of the forums moderators but its fair to say species that were obvious candidates for this list are mysteriously absent and a couple that have been added are clearly out of place.

It will be interesting to see how quickly this gets pushed through.
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We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bustling with prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity" – Dale Carnegie
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby shadowfoot » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:21 pm

Why only Opistophthalmus species from the scorpion side? What about all the Hadogenes species that are being wiped out by mining operations?
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby Amphibian » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:30 pm

I would refrain from mentioning all the species that honestly should be on the list - your just doing someone elses job.
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby jka » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:07 pm

Eyelash wrote:Leon, thanks for sharing the list but if I may ask, who drew up the reptile section of the list supplied ? Is the person(s) actually qualified to do so ? And if so where can we find the scientific references he/she used to compile it ?

I can understand some of the animals being listed but some seem to be there just because "they can".


I'm expecting to see some wikipedia links right about now!
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby RJG » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:57 pm

Natcon gives us the opportunity that we've always wanted but instead of using this opportunity we complain some more. Then when things stay the same and probably worsen we will all go back to complaining some more. So what if we do someone elses job. We all know that it could be done better but instead of helping to achieve beneficial outcomes for ourselfs as a community we cut of our noses to spite our faces... I dont see the logic although I do understand the frustration. Its all very well and good to vent but natcon(the organisation not the forum member) could always spite us right back and ignore our 'issues', we must remember they are in control of the outcome at the end of the day whether they are right or wrong. So lets be friendly and civil and putting a reference to your comment will do us good at the end. This is a golden opportunity that natcon gave us so they have acknowledged us and our grouped knowledge and our direct link to this legislation. Appreciate what you get and grab each opportunity with optimism and gratitude or you may not get it again.

Ps. I don't want to start an argument so dont attack me with some melodramatic speech of protest.
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Re: New proposed Tops list en regulations out for Comments

Postby it_bit_me » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:12 am

Then comment Tipan... we have our own jobs

I'd rather see the Albany adder protected than see it put on an list etc.
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