Dying rodents

[Rock python]

Hello everybody

I bought some mice from a local pet shop to add to my other breeding colonys and started to notice something strange was going on. After 3 days from buying them one of the female's faces started to swell and a day later one had died. As the days went on more and more started to die so I removed the 2 surviving healthy mice from that colony into their own separate containers.

I contacted the pet shop and they said they are probably just dying due to the heat but to me it seems more like some sort of sickness which kills them. I am concerned that this illness might also effect my own health and more importantly my snakes health.

I have just noticed this morning that one of the healthy mice has also just died and a rat from a breeding colony 1m away!

Any help would be really appreciated

Thanks

[Lillypod]

I've never had that problem and while sometimes mine suffer from the heat, I've never lose more than one or two. Petshops do not always keep their animals in good conditions, especially rodents. Personally I think it might be some disease. You should always quarantine new animals... Even feeders/feeder breeders.

[Lillypod]

Also... If you kill and freeze the rodents for about a month, all diseases/viruses/whatever should be dead.

[jaroo]

I know rats can get Sialodacryadenitis which is a virus that causes facial swelling and sudden death, but not sure about mice. also Streptococcus pneumonia can cause sudden death in both rats and mice and is also highly contagious.

[Rock python]

Eish that doesn't sound good jaroo are those diseases capable of harming humans and reptiles? I will do Lillypod but just not sure if my mom will let me freeze them in the fridge freezer

[Nineve]

Rock python, just to make sure wash all your cages with F10sc (make sure to leave the F10 at least 10 min in the cage before rinsing clean) and provide them with new (sterile) shavings. I have a few questions that you didn't mention in your post. What type of bedding do you use? How old are your breeders and the ones you bought from the pet store? What do you feed your mice? If you open their mouth, can you see any overgrown incisor teeth? Any cuts on them? Are they sneezing? What do their ears look like, are their any eczema on them? Do they a have any brown tears? What do you use to clean your cages?
There is a lot of illnesses that can explain the condition of these mice but we need to look at everything before we can decide.

Heat can be a problem for these little critters, just by putting a fan in the building where your mice are will help, and it will make it much more comfortable for the little creatures. Make sure not to over stock your cages for disease / mite control and for the heat.

I prefer using the V-type cages you get for mice and rats. They seem to do a lot better in them.

Good luck!

[jaroo]

no, humans are actually one of the carriers that can give the bacterial infections to the rodents.

From what you were describing, i assume that you have had healthy breeding colonies for a while with normal mortalities and since introducing the new animales you have been loosing animals which makes me believe that it is some infectiouse cause that you introduced which you are worried about.

I dont know what the weather has been like up that side but my worry is if heat hasnt been an issue before and you now put a fan in the room you will just be healping circulate any causitive agent if it is indeed an infectious cause.

ideally isolate any animals which maybe sick and as Nineve said, clean and disinfect well, an f10 contact time of 40 min is needed for some viruses.

[Rock python]

Hi Nineve

I use Marltons pet litter, my 2 largest colonies have been with me the longest I have had them for a year they are 7 normal mice in one large enclosure and 10 multies in another large enclosure both so far have been unaffected by the disease only the new mice and rats in separate colonies getting effected.

The rodents I bought recently which carried the disease were 4 young mice and 4 young rats, I give my rodents a varied diet with the AVplus rodent pellets as the staple diet. Other food I give them is avocado, carrot, butternut, varies nuts, broccoli, cauliflower, sun flower seeds and wild bird seed.

The incisor teeth look normal to me, yes one rat did have a dark cut on the under side of the leg, yes the rats are sneezing but not the mice, only one rat does have eczema on it's ears, no brown tears. I have been using sunlight dishwashing liquid to clean cages.

Thank you very much for your help

[jaroo]

The majority of domestic rats have mycoplasma infection, usually causes sneezing and wheezing when they are a bit stressed, especially if dusty litter or high amonia levels, but do poorly for a while if the infection is getting the better of them. I personally dont like the Avocado too much, it is cardio toxic and is very toxic to parrots, I have seen dogs that die suddenly after eating large amounts over a period of time as well. Not sure if it will have any effect on rodents, but would feed in moderation.

[Lillypod]

Avo in moderation is ok. Best way to give a picky rat meds is mix it in with avo.

[Lillypod]

The wheezing/sneezing in the rats can be caused by pine/cedar shavings as well.

[Nineve]

Everything said so far is very true, but I suggest for future reference use F10 sc ( Its a bit expensive but really goes a long way! So on the long run its not so expensive) And you can use on your reptile cages for cleaning as well. Sunlight liqued will clean the cages but wont kill the germs in there. Now that said, it sounds like the new rodents did in fact carry something, that unfortunately I cannot help with, I suggest to quarantine them or to euthanize them for the sake of the healthy breeding colonies, but that is your decision to make.

It also sounds to me that there might me a mite problem in your cages, try using Carbadust in the cages to sort that problem out, just be careful which products you use, a lot of them is not healthy for rodents and some of them will kill the reptile you feed it to later on.

In my experience ( it can be symptoms of an underlying disease) sneezing can be that they are allergic to the shavings that you use or that they are to fine. Remember, shavings that is not sterile may have all sorts of chemicals in there as well as mites and fleas.

But for future reference, buy your breeder mice from a reputable breeder or a reputable pet shop that allows you to come and see their mice in captivity, it will save you a lot of money and peace of mind. I for instance like to keep track on my genetic lines.

And always remember this, this can safe your child and your animals life. PREVENTION IS BETTER THAT CURE. Keep a healthy environment and make sure the breeders you introduce are healthy.

This brings me to the age of your rodents, breeding them over the age of one year is to old. I replace my breeders every winter, the average age of menopause in a rat is between 15 and 18 months, its sort of like your grandmother having babies. I suggest replacing them with younger mice / rats. I prefer keeping some of my own mice to restock my colonies, but introduce new males or males from another litter. Make sure to use the litter of females that breed easily and have nice, healthy and big litters , in most cases that gene will carry over to the young.

As for the temperatures for small rodents, they prefer 22 -30 Degrees Celsius ( I think 21 the lowest), that the reason why I suggest a well ventilated room with fans if the temperatures gets to hot.

This wasn't a nice experience but a good learning curve.

Hope this helps with your future breeding!

[Rock python]

Thank you for all your help and advice everyone it is a good learning curve. I will get hold of some carbadust. Do you think the diet I am giving them is alright besides the avo? Would really like to make sure I am giving the snakes all the nutrition they need. Do you think it also might be easier to just use newspaper?

Wondering if ordering frozen from the feeder factory might be a cheaper safer option.

[Lillypod]

Newspaper works well, but will need more regular cleaning.

[Primogen]

I honestly find ordering and keeping frozen feeder rodents is lot less hassle, no need to worry about about fatalities and looking after them.
Although its not neccessarly cheaper, the breeders need to make a profit after all.
But it might be better breeding your own depending on the size of your reptile collection.