Treatment of Severe MBD Leos ...

Postby Gabi » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:46 am

Excellent job!!!!! Well done!
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Postby Spikelet » Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:44 pm

It has been a while in the treatment of my MBD babies - they started treatment in the middle of June 06 so this is 5 months down the line.

They are both still under UVB lights and I am no longer slurrying them but they have access to some very hardcore calcium that seems to be making all the difference in Angels case :D .

Angel has decided that life is fun and that she would actually like to live :D . She has stopped constantly searching for death daisy and is now suddenly picking up between 5 and 10 grams a month as opposed to her slow 1 to 5 gram growth in the past. She is now also shedding completely on her own but she is still a squeaker when I pick her up to see if she is shedding properly ;) A beautiful quiet little girl who hangs out under the UV light and is always close to her food bowl :).

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This is Angel weighing in at a stunning 48 grams - she was originally 6 grams and 3 months old when I got her and we started MBD treatment.

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Angel proving that she can escape - a true sign that she is over the worst of her MBD :) - super stoked :D

Then Rex, my big boy! Rex is now weighing in at a whopping 71 grams. He loves living up to his name in his house and surprised me and nearly gave me heart failure by playing crocodile and jumping straight up in his house - lifting himself about 10cm off the ground before he crashed himself in to his house greenery. He seemed very pleased with his effort especially as it produced some crickets who all shot out the greenery at pace when the Rex landed in it :twisted: He was less pleased when his mom hauled him out and gave him the once over to check for any physical dammage though ;) He is my absolute hunny bunny and loves coming out for a cuddle and an explore with his mom :)

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This is Rex weighing in at 71 grams from 10 grams at 3 months old too :)

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bit of a handsize comparision if that helps to size him ....

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Rex again, just because I can ;)

Then not to leave Leia out - her owner would be sad ;)

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Leia is fine and healthy and weighs in at 54 grams and is now 7 months old. Look at the tail on her, she is definitely proudly South African ;)
'We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner' Bilbo Baggins
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Postby Corncrazy » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:46 pm

Brilliant brilliant work. It has paid off well, congrats.

Sure u feel gr8 :!:
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Postby alexander » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:04 pm

Well done! :) . what are their sizes?
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Postby Bushbaby » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:46 pm

Well done!! Just goes to show what some dedication and hard work can do. They are looking great!!
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Postby Spikelet » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:08 pm

what are their sizes?


Ok went and measured them - note to self: it is very hard to get leos to stand nicely on a ruler so that their mom can measure them :twisted:

So from what I could coax from them Rex is about 24cm - then he decided to try and take over the world ;) Angel is about 19cm - she grumbled a lot at being put on the chilly ruler ;)

Rudy did offer to cable tie them to the ruler but I thought I would go with abouts instead :)

thanks for the comments - these guys are the cutest little things around and the owners of such different personalities :) Love them to bits :)
'We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner' Bilbo Baggins
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Postby horridus » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:24 pm

excellent write-up spiklet

a few things though

we no longer call it Metabolic Bone Disease, the more correct and accurate nomenclature is Hyperparathyroidism secondary to nutrition. A mouthfull i know

also, on a more serious note, hills a/d is not the optimal diet for debilitated reptiles. There is one huge reason for this, thats because the composition of it is very hard on the kidneys to metabolize and thats obviously a huge concern as most debilitated animals are usually having renal problems as it is, and giving them a/d is going to push them over the edge.
I have spoken to Doug Mader about this and he says the best choice is a high quailty kitten food. Something by hills or purina etc. And its cheaper.

I got a second opinion about this from our nutrionist in staff, Dr Scott Campbell (UC Davis), and he agreed and said that A/D is really tough on the kidney's.

Great work, keep it up, and you have any questions, email me at don@mfezi.com
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Postby Spikelet » Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:41 pm

Thanks, Horridus, for the new update on Hyperparathyroidism secondary to nutrition. My non-reptile owning friends were confused about me going on about Metabolic bone disease - wait until I try the new jargon out on them :twisted: All I can say is that we are pretty behind things here unless this is a new terminology change since I saw Dr Verseput in July 06 - I will be sure to let him know when we go in for a check up again.

What is the definition/effect of Hyperparathyroidism secondary to nutrition - does this relate to a calcuim defiency? Are the signs and symptoms the same as the old MBD or have things changed completely from one to the other? Any further info you have would be great as we all need to be made aware of how devastating calcium deficiency is in these very small reptiles. Especially with you being on the cutting egde ... :)

What is the recommended treatement in the States for Hyperparathyroidism secondary to nutrition? Are they noticing an increasing trend in the hyperparathyroidism in reptiles? Vets are noticing an increasing calcium deficiency trend in SA even though the owners are religiously dusting anything that can move. Is there a way to curb this growing concern?

Thanks for the advice about the Hill's A/D. Every new bit of info helps :). There are a few people that would agree with you and it is interesting that the Hills kitten is a better choice - is there a certain ingredient to avoid or is it just the combination used in the Hill's A/D? I must say my leos seem to have not suffered any ill effects but it may be that I mixed the hills with silkworm pupaes, mealworms and superworms all mushed up together into a really nasty smelling slurry, so the overall hills they got was not sufficient to cause further damage? I hope so :shock: Judging by their growth and their behaviour it does not seem to have.

It is also interesting to note that I have two MBD/ Hyperparathyroidism secondary to nutrition leos that I am trying to recuperate at home. Due to the fact that they can both still walk I am letting them have endless access to calcium and to the UVB light during daylight hours. The interesting thing is that they do not seem to be blooming like Rex did when I was slurrying him and Angel. They are lying under the UVB light and ticking over but I have not noticed a marked change in size or behaviour in the 3 weeks they have been here - however they are spending a lot of time eating calcium from their calcium bowl so we will see - maybe we can find the key to recuperation but seems that it consists of a lot of doors and time to get it all right.

Wow, what a new and interesting world to be discovered each day with reptiles :D
'We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner' Bilbo Baggins
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Postby horridus » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:27 am

deficiencies of calcium or vitamin d3 lead to one form of MBD, termed Notional secondary hyperparathyroidism. This is the most commonly seen form of metabolic bone diseases. MBD is a blanket term that includes, but is not limited to Fibrous osetodystophy, Hypertrophic osteodystrophy, Renal Secondary hyperparathyroidsim and Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidsim. You can still use MDB, but only when you attach a term like Notional MBD, or Renal MBD. Natural sunlight is so important and indirect basking is a big deal now. Supplements go so far, but full spectrum light and occasional days in the sun will help. Also, variety!!! email me directly with another questions don@mfezi.com

read "Reptile Medicine And Surgery " by mader, everything is in there... he is the man!!

cheers, don
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Postby Bushviper » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:27 am

So it can still be called MBD then. Thats like saying they have cancer. It could be bone or liver or whatever cancer but its still cancer.

I just find MBD a lot easier to spell. I will feel bad every time I use it, because I do not know the correct term but I am sure I will get over it with time or else learn to use this jawbreaker.

Thnaks for the guilt trip horridus.
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Postby horridus » Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:03 am

No problem. Are you gonna be at the party, better question, are u back in sa? I am on the road at the moment on my way to durbs!! Gotta love the blackberry

Please discussion about snakes, medicine and biltong to be had, hope to see you all soon
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Postby Spikelet » Wed May 16, 2007 11:48 am

the Leopard geckos have now been with me for a year and their progress has been remarkable. I am well over worrying about them and can now just enjoy their personalities ...

Angel is finally flourishing and is putting weight on as can be seen by her growing tail - she is a little eater at heart and is never far from her food bowl ...

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her back legs are still wonky but she walks perfectly well - at one stage we were worried that she would lose mobility in her back legs completely

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you can see her tail getting fatter and she is a willing climber a sure sign of a healthy girl :)

Rex is a little adventurer who gave me heart failure one night. Rudi woke me up to say Rex was hanging upside down on the mesh lid and walking around like that. I blerrily opened my eyes, very disbelievingly and grumpy I might add, to find no Rex hanging upside down. I dutifully then unpacked the whole of Rex's house getting more worried with each thing I pulled out - he was missing! By now i was wide awake - and pulling the whole cage roof apart ... The cheeky bugger had climbed on a log and launched himself at the mesh ceiling of his house. From there he manouvered himself by hanging/walking upside down onto the reflector of his uvb light. He had a huge grin on his face and was very pleased with himself :) less pleased when I took him down and chastised him for giving me heart failure and even less pleased when I removed his launching pad - silly boy.

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No matter how big he gets his tail does not seem to get fatter however weighing in at 80 grams I think he classifies as healthy

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he is a cute boy :)

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him walking along - full of boy cool attitude. His tail is passable but certainly not chubby like his sisters

Leia has always been a healthy girl but like all parents she is the comparision that I based the others progress on. In true african style her bottom has just got bigger and bigger but she definitely is a gorgeous girl :)

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Emma's fat bottomed girl

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'We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner' Bilbo Baggins
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Postby Bushbaby » Wed May 16, 2007 12:05 pm

Very nice Spikelet. You did very well with these guys.
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Postby Spikelet » Fri May 16, 2008 5:04 pm

is it possible for one of the mods to turn this into a sticky?
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Re:

Postby HelloWorld » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:47 pm

Spikelet wrote:is it possible for one of the mods to turn this into a sticky?


I second this
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