Serious Leopard gecko breeders.

[Rabid.Evo8691]

Over the last few years I have been building up my Leopard gecko and Crested gecko colonies to start my breeding projects. I have dedicated all my free time raising and taking care of my reptiles and have a few special projects under my sleeves when it comes to my Leos. The only problem I have is over the last year I have recently struggled to get hold of any of the serious and reputable Leo breeders in our country. I don't understand why my money isnt good enough and honestly don't believe in getting my breeders at an expo because it is very important to me that I know exactly what genetics are in each of my animals so that cross breeding doesn't occur.
The Enigma genes in specific is so cross bred many breeders overseas don't want anything to do with them which I perfectly understand. The same applies with the Diablo blanco and how closely it resembles certain Blizzards. So buying at an expo seems illogical.

I really want to support our South African breeders but it seems as importing has become my only option. If any breeder reads this and understands my frustration please feel free to contact me any time.

[Lillypod]

I'm pretty sure if you ask the breeders at the expo (which is the same breeders you will be contacting privately), they can tell you exactly what genes the geckos posses.

[Rabid.Evo8691]

I have numerously contacted them and just get ignored. I was got a few the beginning of the year from Henry Kemp but after his ordeal it has been tough contacting him with regards to orders. He has amazing geckos which are all super healthy and very well started.

I am having problems with breeders replying to me and the dodgy breeders I have contacted me refuse to show me the hatchlings parents or tell me if they are het free and pure etc.

It just makes me sad. I have spoke to Matt, a great Leo breeder in the states and will help me import Leos into the country if I can't get what I still need by the end of the year.

At the end of the day taking a loan to import animals is my last alternative.

[Rabid.Evo8691]

I apologise about the grammar but I have my fiance baby sister tugging at my ears as I text.

[Bushviper]

Well Henry was at the previous expos and all the biggest breeders of Crested geckos are at the expos. Where do you think they sell most of their babies? I am not surprised you cannot find what you are looking for.

By the way what cross breeding are you talking about. That is how you get many morph genes into one animal. If you dont cross breed you will never get there.

[wadekilian]

If I'm not mistaken, Leopard Geckos can no longer be imported into the country. Maybe someone else can shed light on this?

[Bushviper]

They can be imported. It is just very expensive to do so. Over and above the cost of the animals you can add between ten and twenty thousand rands to a shipment.

[Frank]

@Bushviper: Are you sure they are legal to import? I have also heard that importing leos is illegal.

@Rabid.Evo8691: I am a little confused about your comments regarding breeders not being able to tell you if geckos are het free. Hypothetically speaking. Why would you be upset if the gecko you bought as a bell albino happened to surprise you by being het for some other gene as well?

Also, if one or both of the parent geckos are het and the offspring don't show the homozygous expression of the gene then it is impossible to to say whether or not they are het for the gene without test breeding them, so if the breeder tells you that he can give you that info with 100% accuracy he/she is lying to you.

[Docmorrie]

I'm certainly not speaking on behalf of all the breeders but would like to make a few statements.

All my geckos are accompanied by a breeder's certificate which states all the important information regarding its genetics, health and growth curves. This is an absolute "nice to have" and no breeder is obliged to issue such documents. I feel very strong about the issue that one pays for what you get. When you buy a gecko from me there will be a transfer of ownership, and that includes knowledge about its genetic make-up on paper.

You are welcome to contact me, for I never turned people away that showed interest in my geckos. I believe that most of my customers will agree with me on that.


On the import issue... Money is not the issue, but legislation. The last legal import of leos in this country was done by Henry Kemp in 2010. They were declared as an potential invasive species that might threaten our indigenous gecko population. I personally do not agree with it, for there was no ecological study conducted in SA to support these claims. However, despite of this, they stand their ground regarding this issue. We have tried all channels to open the doors for leopard gecko importation with no success. Henry could elaborate on this issue. As soon as importation become legal in SA for leos again, I would be first in line.

[Jamster]

I think what rabidEvo is saying is that he wants a fresh start with "clean" genetics to experiment with. It might be a bit confusing if you are experimenting with specific morphs to see what they produce. Suddenly you have 3 different "morphs" hatching and it may be difficult to tell which of them is the desired product of your pairing with several hets mixing things up. (this is assuming you are experimenting with new crosses).

[Rabid.Evo8691]

That is exactly what I was intending on saying. It is a huge problem to mix the three strains of albino, the four different snow genes and the two different eye genes (marble eye and eclipse) A breeder I have spoke with won't breed the marble eye trait into the red stripe gene.

I wouldn't want to breed a Mack snow het Bell with a Mack snow het rainwater.

There is a science to breeding leopard geckos and I want no part in screwing everything up. I cant begin to state the importance of knowing what genes your Leos possess.

Johan du Preez is my Rhac breeder and have some amazing cresties from him.

Yes importing is very expensive but sometimes like with Henry is the best way to go to get the animals you need.

As I do believe Leopard geckos are not black listed in Gauteng but JHB International have banned live animals being flown there.

[Rabid.Evo8691]

Any serious gecko breeder should go onto youtube and watch Sasobek11. He is what I base my standards to.

[Frank]

Leopard geckos are not blacklisted in Gauteng, but it is illegal to import them into the country. There is no ban on live animals being flown to Jhb international.

For interest sake. Why will the breeder you spoke to not breed marble eye into red stripe? I haven't read or heard of anything to indicate that the two genes are incompatible or should not be bred together.

I agree there is little to no point to breeding the various snows and albinos into one gecko, unless you want a multigene stud male for instance, but to say you are going to screw up the science of breeding leos if you do seems a bit far fetched. As long as you keep track of the genetics of your breeding stock I don't see how you would screw anything up.

[wadekilian]

to say you are going to screw up the science of breeding leos if you do seems a bit far fetched. As long as you keep track of the genetics of your breeding stock I don't see how you would screw anything up.

That's where the human element of reptile keeping shows itself I guess. It sounds fine on paper, but somewhere along the line someone is gonna stop keeping track of the babies' genetics or calculate it incorrectly. And when that happens how are we gonna know the gecko's genetics for sure as I doubt identifying a Trebell would be as clear cut as distinguishing Bell from Tremper and Rainwater and so on.

[Docmorrie]

I agree with Frank on this one. The problem is not "multiple genes" in one specimen, but rather "not knowing what genes" are confined within the specimen's genetic make-up. You can not go wrong if you keep good records, which is the essence of good morph breeding. If a breeder offers a multiple gene specimen and offers good genetic background history, what seems to be the problem? You know what you are dealing with.

No genes should actually be mixed if the breeder does not anticipate the possible outcome. To have an attitude of "lets see what we will get" is pointless. When gene mutations are introduced one must always be goal directed. The genetic make-up of any biological system can not be reversed. So if you screw it up, it is done. Hidden genes are easily forgotten if it was done without purpose and without record keeping. If one does not have a sound knowledge of genetics, please don't try to fiddle with it. Personally I believe that this is the greatest thread to morph breeding. Too many uninformed people call themselfs breeders with poor knowledge on genetics, poor breeding ethos and non-existing record keeping.

I do sympathize with the fact that pure genetic lines are very hard to find. Too many people are great morph chasers, sometimes overlooking the obvious. One must look beyond morph genetics as well, for gene mutations are in essence genetic flaws that might have negative implications on the overall well-being of the animal. Thus, pure and strong lines (e.g. Size, body structure, tail length and quality, health, fertility, etc., irrespectively of morph) are definitly needed to be re-introduced in ones breeding stock from time to time. This must be a given, and not a consideration. Without sounding too philosophical, a breeder's legacy must be a significant contribution towards the future well-being and success of the species he or she is focussing on.