Serious Leopard gecko breeders.

[Rabid.Evo8691]

I don't even comprehend how some people can disagree with Giant breeders such as Ron Tremper, Matt Baronak, Mark Bell and Brian Barcyk's ethics. Some of them breed out 1000 Leos a day in season. Going against what they have worked so hard to achieve is inane. I mean their names are in the morphs. Are ours? Logical thinking is how you learn and gain experience and is definitely not a popularity contest or a way to extort the animals. I will stick with my way of thinking. Do you know how hard it is to reverse genetics? Its a lot harder than putting them in...

[Rabid.Evo8691]

What do you call a Mack snow crossed with a TUG snow? Lets destroy someone else's hard work by making geckos that are pretty much mongrels that should sold as non breeders. Its like keeping genetics a secret. How do I know what my future hatchlings are then if the breeder I get them from won't tell me. Its silly and irrational to hide things like that. I don't intend to anger anyone on purpose but when I hear things like what's wrong with breeding a two enigmas with two different albino strains showing genotypically I know understand why the first dozen Leos I purchased are exactly what I never paid for.

[Docmorrie]

I think we talk pass each other. I am sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with a breeder that did not disclose the relevant genetic background. I feel your frustration, however, can't associate with your experience for I never crossed paths with breeders that want to cross different snow morphs and other incompatible morphs with each other, for it would be ridiculous. Enigmas and snows are relative expensive morphs, so I am of the opinion that people won't do stupid crosses on purpose after paying a pretting penny for exclusive gene mutations. The general trend is to get yourself knowledgeable about genetics before one coughs up lots of money for rare and exclusive morphs.

[wadekilian]

Rabid.Evo8691, their names are in the morphs because they were the ones that proved out that morph, line or strain and that kinda gives them the naming rights in my opinion. Had they been from South Africa, chances are they wouldn't have proven out anything. The market there is also a lot bigger than it is here which is why they're able to do that full time and breed 1000s of geckos.

The easy links of communication and easy access to information mean its pretty easy for someone to get information and become just as knowledgeable as overseas breeders. Not taking anything away from them, but you seem to think their past achievements make them exempt from correction. People have different views and not everyone's gonna agree with them them. Just because someone writes a book doesn't necessarily mean they know more. Each to his own I guess.

Agreed Morne. Seems pointless to me to spend 1000s of rands on something and then not knowing what to do with it.

[Frank]

Could you please explain what you mean when you say:

two different albino strains showing genotypically.

I understand what genotype is, but I can't grasp your meaning in the above quote.

[Rabid.Evo8691]

If Something shows genotypically it means what they look like visually.
Phenotypically is hidden in the animals gene.
What is so hard to grasp when I say that breeding a Rainwater to a Bell produces all normals?
Ron Tremper is God when it comes to Leopard gecko genetics and no South African will ever contribute to Leopard geckos what he has

[Rabid.Evo8691]

The same applies with Americans and trying to claim their own line in every leopard gecko trait. Do you know the history of the Tangerine lines. Do you know what was the first snow line ever produced. Do you know the two types of carrot tailing you get and that if cross bred eliminates the carrot tailing completely?

[Rabid.Evo8691]

I am South African and have spent over 100000 rand of my hard earned money in this hobby to be able to open up my mouth when it comes to South African related herp topics.

When a breeder refuses to tell me what genes are in the animals he sold to me I believe its stupid and he shouldn't be breeding. When that same breeder tells me breeding a 50% het Radar to any Bell my odds will be 50% in producing a Radar and to only find out by an American I was lied to I think I have a right to speak freely.
I won't mention that breeders name amongst the hordes of other breeders that have sold me wild caughts as captive breds or smuggling animals into our country which is not ethical.

I want nothing to do from them and you can cover for them all you want.
Karma has her ways.

[Frank]

If Something shows genotypically it means what they look like visually.
Phenotypically is hidden in the animals gene.

I think if you go and have a look you will see that you have confused the two terms.

I did not say that it was hard to grasp that breeding rainwater to bell will produce "phenotypically" normal geckos(they will all be double hets so in fact not all that normal).

I am not covering anybody, if someone ripped you off you are entitled to be angry about it. I am just trying to have a constructive debate so I don't understand why you are so defensive.

[Docmorrie]

If Something shows genotypically it means what they look like visually.
Phenotypically is hidden in the animals gene.

You got it all wrong. Phenotype is the visible expression of the genetics. Genotype is the genetics make-up.

[Docmorrie]

When that same breeder tells me breeding a 50% het Radar to any Bell my odds will be 50% in producing a Radar and to only find out by an American I was lied to I think I have a right to speak freely.

And you felt the need to consult an american for this? I am stunned.

On a technical point, there is no such thing as a 50% Het-Radar. I assume you refer to a Bell Het-Eclipse or any other morph for that matter that is heterozygous for both Bell Albino and Eclipse ("HET-RADAR"). If you are familiar with basic genetics you should have realised that you can't expect a RADAR from that pairing.

To make a statement that "Ron Tremper is God when it comes to Leopard Gecko genetics" is far fetched and sounds like the uttering of a child. I respect Ron Tremper for his contribution of more than 30 years of experience in leopard gecko morph breeding... He is a very knowledgeable man in his field, founder of many morphs, however, far from a "genetic god". We as South African breeders never tried to compete with Ron Tremper, et. al., so I do not understand why you dragged that topic into this thread. Totally off topic I would say. For someone who claims to be South African and claims to have spent over "100000 rand" into their hobby you surely took a long time to feature on this forum (joined 30 August 2013). You keep on asking the reader irrelevant questions by asking if they know the history of tangerine, the first line of snow, types of carrot tails... It seems like you try your very best to create the impression that you know your genetics better that anyone els, and yet you get it wrong on the basics of phenotype vs. genotype? I suggest some further reading.

If you have a problem with a breeder, please take it up with him or her, for it is your right to have a better understanding regarding the animal's genetic make-up. We all tried to engaged with this topic, however, your frustration is repetitive and overwhelming.

[Docmorrie]

When that same breeder tells me breeding a 50% het Radar to any Bell my odds will be 50% in producing a Radar and to only find out by an American I was lied to I think I have a right to speak freely.

And you felt the need to consult an american for this? I am stunned.

On a technical point, there is no such thing as a 50% Het-Radar. I assume you refer to a Bell Het-Eclipse or any other morph for that matter that is heterozygous for both Bell Albino and Eclipse ("HET-RADAR"). If you are familiar with basic genetics you should have realised that you can't expect a RADAR from that pairing.

To make a statement that "Ron Tremper is God when it comes to Leopard Gecko genetics" is far fetched and sounds like the uttering of a child. I respect Ron Tremper for his contribution of more than 30 years of experience in leopard gecko morph breeding... He is a very knowledgeable man in his field, founder of many morphs, however, far from a "genetic god". We as South African breeders never tried to compete with Ron Tremper, et. al., so I do not understand why you dragged that topic into this thread. Totally off topic I would say. You keep on asking the reader irrelevant questions by asking if they know the history of tangerine, the first line of snow, types of carrot tails... It seems like you try your very best to create the impression that you know your genetics better that anyone els, and yet you get it wrong on the basics of phenotype vs. genotype? I suggest some further reading.

If you have a problem with a breeder, please take it up with him or her, for it is your right to have a better understanding regarding the animal's genetic make-up. We all tried to engaged with this topic, however, your frustration is repetitive and overwhelming.

[shamroth]

OK, so, basically after all that what we can gather is that
i) you were ripped off by a breeder and made to feel stupid.
ii) Some american helped you so now you worship americans.

Rather than clustering all SA breeders in a bad light maybe try a different (less obnoxious) approach and contact the breeders that are indicated as being reputable by this site.

And 50% possible het?? While, yes, people should not give false information to a customer, it is also the customers responsibility to check the information provided to them. The internet is available and there is no excuse for not doing that, especially if you're spending the amounts on animals that you say you have.

[Bushviper]

You were sold a wild caught Leopard gecko? Oh rubbish. Right up until then I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

If the breeder would not tell you about the genetics of an animal then why did you buy it?

I would suggest that from now on you only buy from the US and sell all your offspring there as well.

[Geckotails]

I am terribly sorry to hear that your not getting any serious gecko breeders in SA. But there are 2 Big Leopard Gecko breeders in SA and 2 up and coming Leo breeders. Very good friends of mine they know who they are they've commented on this chat as well. You can always ask Henry Kemp from Animaniacs Aquarium & exotics and me. Me and Henry are the 2 biggest breeders in SA. So please don't insult the SA people by thinking we don't have the morphs or that we won't Help other fellow breeders. All you can do is ask.

Henry has created a 5 gene Leo this year, and a few firsts for SA and I've also created new morphs for SA last year and this year!!