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White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Animaniacs » Fri May 23, 2014 3:05 pm

I currently have 75 White & Yellows in my collection that i have bred myself with my current projects.
What you are saying and what i have experienced and proven with my breeding trails does not correspond with what your saying.
When you bred the Murphy Patternless White & Yellow what was the pairing ?
Please post pictures of the parents if you would be so kind.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Docmorrie » Fri May 23, 2014 5:16 pm

Great variability is observed in the expression of the White-and-Yellow trait in its heterozygous form. Hence, I believe it to be a dominant trait as it has been described and well accepted by most breeders. Definitly not a polygenetic trait in itself, however, interaction with underlying polygenetic traits do occur.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Mon May 26, 2014 4:47 pm

To answer your question Henry yes as much as the white and yellow gene is dominant/ co dominant (please lets not start a war on which is correct both seem to be thought of equally) but does act polygenetic as when adding carrot tailing, increasing pigment to eliminate hypomelanism which is common to the trait.
Morne anything line bred for is polygenetic when the white and yellow trait was first discovered in Europe it was bred into Super hypo Tangerines so therefore what the Americans got and what we have is hence very polygenetic. If you want white and yellows that display any polygenetic trait you have to linebreed for it. The white and yellow does pastel out the whole Leos background and even with the patterining but not like as with the Enigma which carrot tailing and many other desired traits cannot be linebred for.

I agree the Murphys Patternless trait definitely masks up many traits.
As for princess she is 100% white and yellow ;) and no my experience with them isn't vast (as with the rest of us) and I only own 6 but I was able to identify them all myself so my knowledge on how to identify them is pretty good. The parenting of her isn't relevant.

Please keep my post civil. If not I will go to admin about this. I don't mind a conversation but another personal attack on me will be reported.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Mon May 26, 2014 5:10 pm

2014-05-20 13.06.46-1-1.jpg
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Frank » Wed May 28, 2014 2:50 pm

Please tell me if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying in order to introduce a polygenic trait into W&Y geckos you would need to line breed it into them and that therefore means the W&Y gene is polygenic?
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Thu May 29, 2014 11:47 am

What I am trying to explain with no avail is that the W&Y trait on itself is a dominant trait but if hypomelanism is present in the gene polygenism is a significant factor.

Like I tried explaining before to you Francois Leopard gecko genetics is more complex than just categorizing a gene to a certain locus.
As you will remember a few months back I mentioned crossing stripe, reverse stripe and patternless stripe with the marble eye trait would be counter productive. Striped leos equal eye pigment and as far as my knowledge the marble eye trait is incompatible. Can a R.A.P.T.O.R be classified as a simple recessive?!
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Thu May 29, 2014 12:58 pm

Prohorchik reptiles have been working with W/Ys for almost 20 years.

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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Frank » Thu May 29, 2014 2:09 pm

Rabid.Evo8691 wrote:What I am trying to explain with no avail is that the W&Y trait on itself is a dominant trait but if hypomelanism is present in the gene polygenism is a significant factor.

Like I tried explaining before to you Francois Leopard gecko genetics is more complex than just categorizing a gene to a certain locus.
As you will remember a few months back I mentioned crossing stripe, reverse stripe and patternless stripe with the marble eye trait would be counter productive. Striped leos equal eye pigment and as far as my knowledge the marble eye trait is incompatible. Can a R.A.P.T.O.R be classified as a simple recessive?!



I think the reason you have problems "explaining" is because you very seldom actually explain what you are saying for example "striped leos equal eye pigment" that is a incomplete or very abbreviated statement. Taking the time to fully explain your points would no doubt make a big difference.

I don't know why you are bringing R.A.P.T.O.R into the debate. R.A.P.T.O.R's are a combination morph and if one or more of the genes that make up a R.A.P.T.O.R are not present the gecko is obviously not a R.A.P.T.O.R., W&Y on the other hand is a single gene morph which doesn't require the presence of any other genes to be a W&Y.

The question here was never about catergorizing a gene to a certain locus. It was about the mode of inheritance of the W&Y gene which is, as you have just said, that it is a dominant gene. You then go on to say that if hypomelanism is present in the polygenism it is a significant factor. You said earlier that after W&Y was discovered it was bred into Super hypo tangerines, that would still make me think that the hypomelanism came into the picture afterwards and is not necessarily part of the genes polygenism.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Docmorrie » Thu May 29, 2014 2:14 pm

The White & Yellow (W&Y) gene complex is indeed a very interesting project to work with. Is is a relatively new morph and many breeders have their own theories regarding its inheritance and expression. I have observed many variability in the expression of the W&Y quality from my past breeding season, which was very fascinating for me.

My W&Y TUG Sunglow and W&Y Bell Enigma (both low expression W&Y) gave me offspring that covered the whole spectrum of low to high W&Y expression.

I was in consultation with a few W&Y breeders, including Leekura Anne-Gaëlle from France, and most of them support the "graded expression" of W&Y - a classification system is yet to be developed in order to shed more light and clarity on this topic. This reminded me of the Piebald morph in ball pythons... Although it is a recessive trait and genotype-stable, its phenotype is randomly graded from low to high expression. One could only postulate, and this is purely my opinion, that the W&Y gene might find itself in a similar situation: Dominant inheritance with randomly graded expression of W&Y traits. There are a few polygenetic traits that tend to mask the W&Y to a certain degree, so there might be some sort of interaction.I do believe that line breeding will play a role in "fine tuning" the morph's general appearance. All of us that is working with the W&Y morph has some homework to do, and hopefully in the near future we will gain more insight in this spectacular morph.

With regards to your W&Y Murphy's Patternless, please do post some updated pictures as it develops. Think it would be an interesting thing to follow and very educational for all. :smt023
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Thu May 29, 2014 3:32 pm

Morne basically summed it up best. Will keep het updates rolling.

Frank: You claimed your extensive knowledge so I thought you already knew that the Tremper albino has its own unique way of producing eye pigmented Eclipse animals without any Eclipse or RAPTOR background lineage.

Matt Baronak, I refer to him a lot but he knows his stuff and knows how to educate those willing to learn and he explains it the best in my opinion.

So please tell me if I lose you anywhere Frank and I will gladly elaborate.

We all know what a typical banded leopard gecko looks like. So when you pair up two banded leos sometimes aberrant leos are produced. An aberrant leo like you know because you have produced them in the past is just a leopard gecko with the banding on the back or tail, neither both, that is broken.
Aberrants cannot be viewed as a recessive even if it does act that way.

When pairing up two aberrant leos sometimes jungles are produced. A jungle is a leo that has bands broken on the back and tail. Typically it makes a swirl pattern on the back and tail bands are broken but jungles vary greatly in quality. Jungles cannot either be viewed as a recessive even if it may act that way.

Now this is where the fun probably begins and where I am at.
When pairing two Jungle leos together striped leos are produced. A striped leo is a leo with a stripe running from the base of the neck to the tail. You do get broken stripes which are jungles but act more than just a typical jungle. Both traits cannot be viewed as recessives.

Part two to continue
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Thu May 29, 2014 4:08 pm

Part two


Okay so the stripe is lighter than the general colour of the background of the leo and it has two dark stripes running on both sides of the light stripe. You also get broken stripes which are actually jungles but act differently. The same applies here, stripes and broken stripes cannot be viewed as recessives.

When pairing up two striped leos sometimes reverse striped leos are produced. As the name applies it is the exact opposite of a striped leo. Instead of a light stripe the light stripe is replaced with a dark stripe with two light stripes running alongside the dark stripe.
You also get broken reverse stripes which are jungles but act differently.
Both cant be viewed as a recessive either even if they act sometimes like a recessive.

Now I am not going to go into the history of this but Ron Tremper and Alberto (Matt Baronaks mentor) of A&M both had special projects where the Aptor and Raptor were discovered. This was done by producing a patternless stripe leo (completely unrelated to the Recessive Murphys Patternless trait).
They did this by pairing striped and reverse striped leos together which produced a leo simultaneously displaying the striped and reverse striped traits, basically producing a patternless leo and in the process unlocking eye pigment directly linked to the Eclipse trait.

I am done typing now and everybody can produce their own Raptors and Eclipse leos from scratch.
This is why I never decided to eloborate because my explanation is still vague and cannot be just typed out. Thanks again for turning my post into a circus and trying to discredit me once again. Maybe you should start educating people with your knowledge Frank and all the white and yellows you own. Show us some pictures of them Frank.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Westley Price » Fri May 30, 2014 8:30 am

Guys, I understand it is natural for people to disagree, but the Leopard Gecko section has been having a lot of arguments lately.

There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate where respect is shown to all parties, but it seems certain members are going out of their way to humiliate/taunt others.

Just keep it clean and if you cannot contribute to the topic, rather dont post.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Frank » Fri May 30, 2014 11:42 am

Image

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The fact that I own W&Y's does not mean I know everything there is to know about them, and I have never claimed to know everything with regards to the W&Y gene or leopard gecko genetics in general.

My knowledge comes from the very limited experience I have in breeding leos, from what I have read from various sources on the internet and from conversations and debates with the other breeders in SA. When/if I hear or read something that is contrary to what I have previously heard I will, as I have done in this thread ask for clarity on what was said in order to try and learn.

I don't believe anything I have posted here could be taken as a personal attack or an attempt to discredit you. I'm sure the moderators would have already contacted me if i had said anything inappropriate.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Savu » Fri May 30, 2014 9:05 pm

My view is that you guys have a lot of expertise and knowledge in this field of Leo genetics. What I have noticed though on this forum though is,that as soon as you get challenged (disagreed)on,it gets personal. We always complain why the "Germans",Hollanders,Yankees" breed all our African reptiles more than we do? It's because apart from studying their inhabitants properly and caring for their specific needs,here in S.A,it seems that es soon as somebody challenges (with right) somebody else view,it turns into a bitchfight. Unfortunately I think google is to blame,cause everybody knows everything at the click of a button.
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Re: White and Yellow Murphys Patternless

Postby Animaniacs » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:58 pm

Hi Everyone. I say prove it out by breeding. Period. One can not debate an issue if you yourself has not breed and worked with W&Y. I brought the W&Y gene into S.A in 2009 and I was the first to Breed them in S.A. A lot of talk about the overseas guys we have good breeders in S.A who work together and we have created amazing Leos. Look Locally and hear everyone's views. No one is attacking you but in all fairness you bought all your W&Y and did not breed them. Relax and enjoy the hobby.

I shared info about the W&Y and my experience when i bred them. You stuck on your ways boet and that's fine. Let us know how it goes once you start breeding your geckos. Maybe you come across something I missed since 2004 when i started breeding Leopards.
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