Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Re: Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Postby WW » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:35 pm

Qball,

Depends a bit what kind of snake you are looking for: anything so long as it has a rattle, or do you prefer smaller species, or larger ones?

Species to avoid: C. adamanteus, atrox, scutulatus, durissus, vegrandis, unicolor, simus, basiliscus, oreganus helleri. They are either very large (thus with a potentially huge venom yield - e.g., adamanteus, atrox, simus, basiliscus) and/or have particularly toxic venom that has a higher than average chance of landing you in a box (scutulatus, durissus, vegrandis, unicolor, oreganus helleri), and a track record of clinical cases to prove it. Also, some tend to be extremely cranky and potentially hard to control (e.g., some atrox, scutulatus and helleri).

If you like larger but manageable species, C. molossus is often very colourful, and most specimens are fairly calm and laid back. Of course, being fairly large, there is plenty of venom there if you were to get bitten. C. ruber is also generally rather placid, as is C. cerberus, but again, although they are usually calm, bites can happen, and are likely to result in a good dose of venom inside you.

Among the smaller species, there is a lot more choice - Sistrurus spp., C. cerastes, C. lepidus etc. are all smaller, nicely patterned species that are unlikely to put you in a box, as are many of the smaller Mexican highland species - I don't know what's usually available in S. Africa. Most important of all, remember we are talking about the statistical chance of ending up with a tag on your toe. Just about any front-fanged snake could, in extreme circumstances, cause a life-threatening bite, it is just a much less likely outcome for some species than others. However, if your number is up on the day, you COULD die or lose fingers or more to any rattlesnake. For these smaller species, be sure to get specimens that are feeding on small mammals, many of these species feed primarily on lizards in the wild, and can be difficult in captivity. Having to force- or assist-feed is one of the best ways of dramatically increasing your chances of finding yourself with a fang in your finger.

Good luck!
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Re: Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Postby croteseeker » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Qball wrote: From what I researched I also came up with Crotalus cerastes but I don't have too much knowledge on the genus so hence the reason wanting advice from someone with experience.


Well, Qball, you probably won't like this, but my advice is don't get a rattlesnake. Everything WW said is true. And BV makes another good point that carries a lot of weight. The lack of antivenin in SA makes a bite from these snakes as serious for you as a Dendroaspis bite would be for me. Rattlesnakes regularly kill people, even with antivenin sometimes. C. cerastes has caused fatalities in the past. And we haven't even gotten to the issue of pain yet. Even if it doesn't kill you, you will likely wish it had.

Even if you just get a Sidewinder, you've then got an animal that strikes like a coiled spring (that's no joke- they can leave the ground), covers ground at an astonishing rate of speed, presents no good opportunities to put hands on it, and refuses to ride a hook. Pair that with fangs and venom that you can't get medicine for, and you have one hell of a bad choice in a pet. Please bear in mind that I can't judge, as I keep them myself. I just simply cannot, in good conscience, suggest a rattlesnake as a pet. Especially after what I've learned about the difficulties an individual can have trying to acquire antivenin in SA.

If you're going to do it anyway (again, I can't judge, as I probably would,too), be smart. Use tongs, tubes, and a healthy dose of common sense. :smt006
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Re: Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Postby marc bt » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:27 am

Some good advice that!
Thats exactly why i stay away froming keeping rattlers.
Good luck mate!
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Re: Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Postby yoson10 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:50 am

croteseeker wrote:-Qball, I see what you're getting at. If you want to know which buzztails have the least chance of putting you in a box, I would have to go with Crotalus cerastes. Not much venom and not very potent. Remember that even some of the Pygmies and Massasaugas have neurotoxins. A Sidewinder bite would be something akin to a nip from a Copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix).

In case you were curious, the worst bite would likely be the Mojave (Crotalus scutulatus), but Crotalus tigris has the nastiest venom with a LD50 rating similar to that of the Black Mamba.


-TJ&ACP, I'm sure that it's possible to do something along those lines using locality-specific breeding stock. As far as I know, the highest levels of Mojave toxin are found in animals from SE Arizona, SW New Mexico, and Northern Mexico.



Last time I checked Qball is not a laboratory mouse so I don't think he should really put much stock into what that absurd ld50 test shows...Not to mention their are PLENTY of types of rattlesnakes that are missing from the list and have never been given a ld50 rating...then you have to factor in venom variation within the SAME snake in different parts of its geographic distribution...Yeah its time we stop giving that stupid test any credence.
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Re: Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Postby croteseeker » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:11 pm

yoson10 wrote:Last time I checked Qball is not a laboratory mouse so I don't think he should really put much stock into what that absurd ld50 test shows...Not to mention their are PLENTY of types of rattlesnakes that are missing from the list and have never been given a ld50 rating...then you have to factor in venom variation within the SAME snake in different parts of its geographic distribution...Yeah its time we stop giving that stupid test any credence.



You're correct, we're not mice. But we do react in a similar fashion to rattlesnake venom, albeit in a more highly-sensitive manner. No test can tell you all you need to know about the venom of any given individual animal based on study which takes place on a specific level. The ld50 test is simply the best all-around scientific tool we currently have for judging lethality of certain compounds against an animal with similar biological reactions to said compounds. While there are species missing from all ld50 lists, the combined data of all the lists available cover all of the Crotalid species used to make antivenom. Species that are highly studied and known to be, for the most part, myotoxic and hemotoxic. Furthermore, the species that are known to possess significant amounts of B-neurotoxins (ie mojave toxin) are also included. All in all, not a half bad list of buzztails.

The tiger rattlesnake is already known to have a venom composed almost entirely of B-neurotoxins. While the exact composition is still being studied, it's been shown to express very little in terms of the cytotoxicity that rattlesnake venom is usually known for, with bites even being reported to produce little to no pain, replaced instead with systemic reaction. I stand by what I said earlier. The tiger rattlesnake has the nastiest venom.

For those that do see some validity in ld50 rankings, here's one of the lists I've found with the most crotes listed:

http://www.seanthomas.net/oldsite/ld50tot.html
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Re: Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Postby poobsta » Mon May 07, 2012 1:18 am

A little bit off topic but please could someone help point me in the right direction to purchase C.Cerastes in south africa any information will be appreciated. Sorry to side track a very informative topic.
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Re: Rattlesnake venom & advice?

Postby MegF » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:48 am

I know this is an older thread, but if you are planning on getting into the crotalus species, you might look at the C. ruber (Red diamondback) whose venom is less toxic then some of the others. For their size, pygmies pack quite a wallop and are very aggressive to boot. Their bites outnumber any other species in our ER 2:1 over say a copperhead. Their venom is quite toxic and has a delayed onset. Generally though, yield is small so there is rarely a death from them. Either one would be a decent choice for a starter Crot. Any of the diamondbacks excepting the reds are asking for it. They are fast, aggressive (never met a mellow western or eastern) and being large can give a huge dose of venom. An eastern bite will kill you if you don't get some type of help, and can still kill you even if you do. I keep a neotropic (C. durrissus) and she has venom that will put you down and out as well as having some attitude. She's definitely mellower than the first one I kept (who literally gave me nightmares) but she isn't something to ever get complacent with.
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