Forgive me if I come across as naive

[yoson10]

Actually, the chance of a cottonmouth being deadly if you get to a hospital to treat symptomatically is small unless you are allergic. While the venom is more potent than that of contortrix, neither species (A. contortrix, or A. piscivorous) is considered extremely high on the LD 50 chart. Not a good idea to get bitten by anything and certainly keeping species that have no antivenom available anywhere is not a good idea. Even the exotic species I keep has antivenom available to me. Either the local zoo or at Dade County Florida venom bank.

Homo sapiens aren't mice...I don't think it's a good idea( in fact I KNOW it's not a good idea) to keep referencing that retarded ld50 test....as if it has any real meaning for anything that isn't a mouse....unless of course you are somehow a talking mouse or something.

[yoson10]

Actually, the chance of a cottonmouth being deadly if you get to a hospital to treat symptomatically is small unless you are allergic. While the venom is more potent than that of contortrix, neither species (A. contortrix, or A. piscivorous) is considered extremely high on the LD 50 chart.

That's a dangerous assumption to make. A. piscivorus bites are almost always treated with antivenin, thus data regarding untreated bites is hard to come by. Making assumptions based strictly on a number and no other criteria is maybe not the wisest course of action, particularly with this species. You must look at this animal from all aspects to understand how dangerous they can be. I also feel that ld50 is useful, but you're ignoring other factors mentioned in the same research which should have stood out as a warning.

A couple facts to keep in mind:

1) A. piscivorus and A. contortix do have similar venoms, but
2) A. piscivorus has about twice the venom yield.
3) A. piscivorus has an ld50 rating which is similar to Bothrops atrox and Crotalus lepidus, with a venom yield roughly between the two.
4) It's also a worse bite than your eyelash viper. Watch your fingers.
5) Bites are very difficult to treat symptomatically. They call this snake the rottenmouth for a reason.
6) Perhaps most telling, while copperhead bites are often treated symptomatically and without antivenin, that is not the case with the cottonmouth, in which case even a dry bite will likely receive a small dose of CroFab.
7) Also important, many figures available online do not reflect actual statistics. Google American snake bite statistics and it'll tell you no Agkistrodon has killed anyone since the '80s. This is not true. I can think of at least two deaths in just the past couple of years from this genus.

BTW, nice to meet you, Meg.
Sorry if I come off like I'm trying to lecture. I mean well, but I'm kind of an #$%&##.

The ld50 test is NOT useful in any way...their are clear studies that show their can be a TREMENDOUS difference in reaction/overall toxicity from different animals to a given venom..In fact its not even just some general neurotoxin vs hemotoxin thing (like it's not that some animals are more resistant to all neurotoxins or whatnot) it's MUCH more complicated that that and it goes down to SPECIFIC venoms...For instance their is an Australian tarantula that's bites caused a 100 percent fatality rate (some in as fast as 30 minutes) for canines yet it only caused mild pain/discomfort in humans bites...then you have the Funnel Webs which cause only mild effects in dogs and can be fatal in humans....Both spiders had neurotoxic venoms yet their difference in how severe the venom toxicity was was incredible..1 neurotoxin caused almost no effect and the other can cause death....Its because ALL animals react differently to a given venom...and it's not just some general hemotoxin vs neurtoxin thing...it's much more complex than that...

Humans love to make simplistic dumb-ed down distinctions like "most venomous...or most deadly etc" but nature does not work in that way...Their is no such thing as "most venomous snake" that is just dopey talk for fanboys who want to brag about how badass their native snake/snakes are....It's not different then bragging about your military or anything of the sort.

So unless we test all venomous snakes on humans (and MANY venomous snakes are missing from the current mice ld50 test) we nothing more than a general idea of which snakes are very toxic to humans( and that rough knowledge comes from reading bite studies...not by looking at the ld50)

[croteseeker]

I have no desire to start a crusade for ld50 testing, but since two of these comments are aimed at me, here's what I have to say on that matter....

Yoson, we've had this conversation. Invent a better test and I will cite it every other day. By the way, they use (talking ) rabbits and other animals for ld50 testing, as well. Each individual test will usually reference the animal used in testing somewhere near the top of the first page.

Meg, it's funny how you dismiss the validity of a test after you just finished using it to make your point. I explained the irrefutable data that you ignored (unless the presence of rodents in the lab affects venom yield), and now the whole test is invalid? Either way, as I stated, it's not wise to look at only the numbers. If only bite studies are relevant, I suppose it's a good thing I remembered to add lines 5-7. The composition of A. piscivorus venom is known to science. We know what it does, and it's nasty stuff. Getting a cottonmouth because you think you won't need antivenin is asinine. Telling someone else to do it is not only incredibly irresponsible, it's also the kind of disinformation that will eventually get someone killed. Period.

[croteseeker]

First off, Meg, I am very sorry. I just saw that yoson wrote both of those, so you should know that you have my deepest apologies.

Yoson, I have yet to read anything of use from you. Granted, I haven't read all of the threads on these boards. So, if I ever do read something useful from you, I'll be sure to let you know that your opinion has finally begun to matter.

Btw, regarding that last dig of yours in the thread I bowed out of,

1) It's illegal to hunt with machine guns, or from helicopters.

2) The high percentage of, "retards," seems to have only done great things for the US space and defense industries, both of which are based (and do the majority of their hiring) there.

Being a man of my word, I was gonna let that drop. Now, if it's all the same to you, I'd appreciate it if you'd try to find someone else to bully. I'm not in the mood to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

[MegF]

I am quite aware of the treatment involved in cottonmouths as they are indigenous to my state and I work at a hospital. That said we see far more bites from A. Contortrix and from our little pygmy rattlesnake then we do our cottonmouths, with bites from pygmys at twice the number of the copperhead. While there are recorded deaths from cottonmouths, treatment still consists of observation for a minimum of 8 hours, regular bloodwork to watch for issues such as clot time and kidney function (although kidney issues are rare). Most likely if you had no antivenom available, simply treating with steroids, antihistamines, antibiotics and fluids would be enough to survive. Swelling and tissue damage would be likely and perhaps more serious necrosis. Compartment syndrome is rare in any of the hemotoxic species here although the swelling can be huge. That said as well, our hospital tends to err on the side of idiocy and give antivenin for everything regardless of need. It is nearly as dangerous as the bite in many cases due to allergic reaction to the serum. If it were ME, I'd not take antivenom unless it was very, very bad. They've given antivenom here for copperhead bites and there have been one fatality from them in the last year due to a guy who was allergic being bitten for a second time by his own copperhead. Since 1957 there have been about 4 fatal bites from that species, yet they still rush to give antivenom. Soooo, just because your hospital routinely gives antivenom (and they do here also because patients seem to demand it) it's not necessarily what is needed. I keep full protocols on all the N. American species and they all say wait and observe and give if there are serious signs or changes in bloodwork. They also recommend antivenom long before I personally would. I certainly would never take antivenom for a copperhead bite even if the doctor wanted to right away unless I was showing signs of problems like severed clotting issues or other allergic signs. Swelling and severe pain is common in the species but people just don't normally die from them so you can take it with a grain of salt either way.

[Bushviper]

MegF I am so glad someone with experience has managed to give us the information we need.

I would think that you would have had more Cottonmouth bites but possibly this is more because of where they live and not because of behaviour.

The problem we have here is when it is time to start antivenom for Crotalids we don't have ANY! We have to just treat symptomatically which is a problem when the blood refuses to coagulate.

[MegF]

We have few cottonmouths in the area I work-more copperheads and pygmys as well as canebrakes. Where I live they are more prevalent along with the other species. We also have coral snakes (no antivenom anymore for that anymore-although they are difficult to be envenomated by) and several other species of rattlesnakes including the Eastern diamondback (now that one will kill you!). Statistically though, even with diamondbacks, more people die from reactions to the antivenom than the actual bite. I live near a science center that keeps all indigenous species of snake, turtle, gator and lizard. Whit has done extensive studies on the behaviors of cottonmouths and their supposed aggression and found in the field that the snakes in general had to be very, very harrassed in order to get a true bite. They used a fake hand to touch the snake but first they would lightly tap the snake with their foot, put pressure on the body with their foot, prod it with their hands and then pick it up with the fake hand. In all cases the snake would strike at, but not connect until they were actually picked up. Usually the cottonmouths mellow out rapidly in captivity and I've heard of some keepers calling them shelf snakes as they could stick them up on a shelf while cleaning cages and they'd just stay there-not in this house but that's what I've read!
I can't imagine not having any type of crofab or anything for some of the larger crotalus species such as Eastern or Western diamondbacks! That would be risky in the extreme. The worst snake I have right now is the neotropic and I have several sources for antivenom here. I'm hoping I never need it of course and if I do what I'm supposed to, I shouldn't. I can see the attraction of many of these beautiful animals would attract a lot of keepers to have them regardless of the risk. I guess that just means that you'd have to be 5 times as vigilant and not get complacent. I'd almost rather have a cranky snake than a docile one as the latter would seduce you into taking risks that you wouldn't with the one that's trying to get you all the time. Be careful folks!!

[yoson10]

I have no desire to start a crusade for ld50 testing, but since two of these comments are aimed at me, here's what I have to say on that matter....

Yoson, we've had this conversation. Invent a better test and I will cite it every other day. By the way, they use (talking ) rabbits and other animals for ld50 testing, as well. Each individual test will usually reference the animal used in testing somewhere near the top of the first page.

How about we just don't use any test then? Sounds good buddy? How about we just base our opinion off of snakebite studies on humans where we can at least gain some sort of idea pertaining to the toxicity of a particular snake to humans...That approach would be at least somewhat accurate( through still very flawed) but far better than irrelevant tests done on mice.


And no rabbits and other animals are not used for the official ld50...It is only laboratory mice for all the ld50 tests that I have seen. If you have any extensive ld50 tests that were conducted on rabbits please post them...as I know that rabbits react quite differently to certain snake venoms( when compared to mice)

Meg, it's funny how you dismiss the validity of a test after you just finished using it to make your point. I explained the irrefutable data that you ignored (unless the presence of rodents in the lab affects venom yield), and now the whole test is invalid?

Yes the whole test is invalid...like like it would be invalid for cats, dogs, elephants etc...That of course doesn't invalidate your claims that a copperhead can kill someone (quite to the contrary it actullay leaves open the possibility that it can)

[yoson10]

First off, Meg, I am very sorry. I just saw that yoson wrote both of those, so you should know that you have my deepest apologies.

Yoson, I have yet to read anything of use from you. Granted, I haven't read all of the threads on these boards. So, if I ever do read something useful from you, I'll be sure to let you know that your opinion has finally begun to matter.

Aww how cute...he doesn't have to time to back up any of his claims so he just uses cute insults...What an adorable little cop out.

1) It's illegal to hunt with machine guns, or from helicopters.

No it is not... Aerial hunting/Aerial Culling is very common in certain areas of the US....particularly in areas with large predator population. Their are loopholes that are commonly exploited as you clearly know and permits are given out.

2) The high percentage of, "retards," seems to have only done great things for the US space and defense industries, both of which are based (and do the majority of their hiring) there.

That piece of information doesn't refute my comments in the slightest way. Every state has it's intelligent people and it's "retards" (if you don't believe in evolution...you are an example of a retard in my book) All I was said was that from my personal experiences...I encountered a higher % of retards in that state then any-other place I had ever been to...Does not mean that everyone is a retard or anything of that sort....and it's an obvious matter of perception. Their are plenty of relevant statistics that one could look up to get a much better understanding of the "overall intelligence level" of the average Texan and that would be a much more accurate portrayal that my humble opinion.

Being a man of my word, I was gonna let that drop. Now, if it's all the same to you, I'd appreciate it if you'd try to find someone else to bully. I'm not in the mood to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

I'm not trying to bully anyone. I just find it irritating how people refer back to that test as if it means anything. It is a ROUGH guide at BEST period...No hard-feelings...no disrespect but to me it is an extremely useless test.

I will post some more information on it in a minute.

[yoson10]

Here are some quick examples
.
1. Sydney funnel web venom causes only extremely mild signs in dogs cats mice rabbits etc but is very toxic and potentially lethal in even adult humans. The funnel web possessed a neurotoxin
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/772401-overview



2. Queensland Tarantula venom causes only very mild symptoms in humans, even in young children[ local pain] yet has a near 100% DEATH rate for dogs and a nearly 50 percent death rate for cats..Once again another neurotoxin

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1265 ... t=Abstract


3. For Redback spider and Black Widow bites.
“There is considerable species variation in susceptibility to envenomation. The guinea pig, horse and camel are very susceptible while the dog is relatively resistant to the effects of the venom. It is seldom lethal in dogs unless a considerable number of bites are inflicted, as would most likely only occur under experimental conditions. The susceptibility of the cat probably lies between that of guinea pigs and dogs."
"Redback antivenom is not normally required as a life saving measure in dogs, but its use may be considered in cases where redback envenomation is suspected in order to relieve the immediate discomfort or where a pre-existing condition, such as cardiac dysfunction, is present.”

“It is reported that cats, being more susceptible to redback venom, do receive antivenom from veterinarians and respond dramatically in minutes with significant lessening of signs."

http://www.avru.org/vetpet/vetpet_vetspider.html

[Bushviper]

Okay guys please stop with the personal insults. This could lead to people ability to post being restricted.

[yoson10]

Alright sounds good....But how can you explain this?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1265 ... t=Abstract

And that's just 1 glaring example of many that shows the general worthlessness of the ld50 test....It's even pretty misleading for mice because their are many snakes that are left off the list and have never been given a ld50 value....Plenty of very venomous snakes are missing from the list. Plus then you have to factor in regional changes in venom composition/toxicity etc...For instance a black mamba does not have a 0.32 ld50 rating....A black mamba from one SPECIFIC locality has a ld50 of .32