To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:53 pm

When I browse on other forums I almost always find a topic related to why or why not Enigmas should be bred. I think it is very important that people should be educated to how 'special' the Enigma strain is.
I think it is equally important for every breeder in our country producing enigmas to educate potential buyers about their proven neurological disorder and all the cons about owning such a beautiful Leo can be.

Just as with the spider ball python all Enigma Leopard geckos pass down a genetic neurological disorder known as the Enigma syndrome. Various symptoms are expressed between different individuals but most commonly are symptoms such as stargazing, spinning, rolling upside down can happen even to Tim healthiest enigma that has never shown symptoms before. The worst case scenario is that they suddenly go off feed and slowly wither away through starvation. Many reasons can trigger the Syndrome and is mainly stress related from overhandling, bright lighting, new enclosure, breeding, ovulation etc and anybody that says their Enigmas are syndrome free are lying. No scientific data can back that up and even the healthiest and most prolific enigmas can have very ill animals, which need be culled.

Yes they truly are beautiful creatures and I don't advocate against keeping and breeding them as long as you do your part. I on the otherhand won't breed them or work with them ever. I am going to concentrate on the White and yellow project and on my fb page you can have your opinion if What I believe is my first White and yellow.
Follow our progress on our facebook page (Rabid Evolution reptiles)
Rabid.Evo8691
SA Reptiles member (restricted)
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:27 am

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Docmorrie » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:53 pm

The Enigma morph was first developed by Mark Bell in 2006. It was a random occurrence that demonstrated autosomal dominant inheritance. This morph typically shows characteristic orange pigment in the iris of the eyes (orange-red in albino), body colour and pattern amplification and alteration, and neurological symptoms which may be present to a variable degree or undetected - please refer to the T.E.S.S. (The Enigma Syndrome Study) for more information.

The Enigma morph is actually not a colour morph, but a neurological disorder which follows dominant inheritance such as other dominant neurological disorders like neurofibromatosis, Huntington's disease, and myotonic dystrophy seen in humans. I am of the opinion that the mutation lies within the ectoderm-layer of early embryological development, more specifically the neural crest cells. The ectoderm will differentiate into skin cells of the epidermis, pigment cells and neural tissue - all the areas which are affected in enigmas. The location of the defective neural crest cells might play a role in the variation in neurological symptoms which are typically seen. My hypothesis is that the more cephalic (towards the brain) the position of this defective neural crest cells find itself, the more symptoms could be expected. The neurological symptoms coupled to this dominant-mutation could originate from the cerebellum, due to the ataxia and dyscoordication which are demonstrated at variable degrees. Maybe the "Golden Mid-Way" lies in the position of defective neural crest cells which would be best tolerated? Maximal colour amplification effect, with undetectable or absent neurological symptoms. That would be the ideal to strive for.

The Enigma is very desirable for its vivid colours, but at lot of people are concerned about the neurological symptoms coupled to this mutation (The Enigma Syndrome), AND RIGHTLY SO! This is not a morph for the irresponsible money chasers within the reptile trade. Ethical breeders, myself included, that work with enigmas focus on selective breeding practices in order to eliminate the neurological symptoms to undetectable levels, without to sacrifice the colour effects. Specimens with a poor T.E.S.S.-score should be euthanised in an ethical manner. This is one of the reasons why this morph is not suitable for the faint hearted individual. If one can not commit yourself to make a positive contribution towards this morph, please do not consider this morph.

I have hatched quite a few enigmas this past season and only one showed mild ataxic movements which was euthanised. The rest are symptom free up to date.

This is one of my Tangerine Hypo Enigmas of the past season... Vividly coloured with no neurological symptoms up to date.

IMG_1517.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Brought to you by "M.S. Living Art Geckos"

Facebook Page: www.facebook.com/MSLivingArtGeckos
User avatar
Docmorrie
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:41 pm
Location: Pretoria

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:49 pm

Not that I could explain it more scientifically. No matter how symptom free they are my friend they still pass the gene and it disorder down through the generations.

Maybe through breeding the enigma strain to pure sub species (unavailable in our country besides the afghanicus to my knowledge) and back and forth the gene could improve but what I have heard from a lot of people working with them in the states is that The syndrome will never be 100% eliminated.

I am as ethical as you get and I am not for the mutation. The animals health should always be considered over our entertainment.
Follow our progress on our facebook page (Rabid Evolution reptiles)
Rabid.Evo8691
SA Reptiles member (restricted)
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:27 am

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Geckotails » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:02 pm

We are Busy with lowering the "Enigma Syndrome" in SA. Up to now, Henry, Morne and Myself have hatched a few Syndrome free Enigmas. And was done by Breeding some of our Stronger genes with a Enigma.

Although they carry that "Neurological disorder". Within them, it is slowly being whipped out!!
Geckotails
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Geckotails » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:36 pm

What i meant was the intensity of the Syndrome is lowered in some of the combos. We aren't eliminating the Syndrome, that will never happen
Geckotails
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Geckotails » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:39 pm

I Apologize, for answering wrongly. MY BAD. Lol
Geckotails
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:41 pm

Are you, Henry and Morne breeding the enigma strain to pure species and sub species of Eublepharis?
If not you are strengthening nothing.
Dave at Davidsfinegeckos is doing the most work improving the Enigma strain and find out how he is doing it. It isn't about taking an Enigma Leo that has shown no signs of The Enigma syndrome and breeding it to another Enigma showing no signs of the syndrome. Eventually through stress or out of The blue either them or their offspring will show hectic syndrome symptoms.

The Enigma syndrome is a dominant syndrome and only one allele of the syndrome is needed to pass on the neurological disorder.
Follow our progress on our facebook page (Rabid Evolution reptiles)
Rabid.Evo8691
SA Reptiles member (restricted)
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:27 am

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Docmorrie » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:16 am

It would be unethical to cross two enigmas, irrespective of their syndrome status. I will never do that, no good could come from such a crossing. I am not convinced that hybridization of sub-species would "strengthen" the enigma morph, due to the following reasons:

- hybridization of subspecies opens a pandora's box for erratic genetic expresssions that could up- or down-regulate certain genes that might or might not trigger disease. E.g. Tumours

- Genetic inheritance of disorders will most likely not be limited by a single subspecies, and could easily be transferred from one subspecies to the next. E.g. The genome project. Many genes (or their mutations) are not limited to a specific species.

The fact of the matter is that the enigma morph is coupled to a neurological disorder with much interindividual varience in demonstrating symtoms, as seen with the spider morph in ball pythons. I am also of the opinion that background genetics plays a valuable role in the end result. Quality selection is key for any breeding project.

The enigma morph is indeed a very interesting morph to work with which never fails to impress. I am very proud of the enigmas that I have produced this season, for they are supurb specimens. To breed or not to breed enigmas? My answer will be roaring YES!
Brought to you by "M.S. Living Art Geckos"

Facebook Page: www.facebook.com/MSLivingArtGeckos
User avatar
Docmorrie
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:41 pm
Location: Pretoria

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:53 pm

Sorry guy but I side with Dave on this a won't be breeding Enigmas until I get a research import permit in the next few years.

The common Leopard gecko we have today is a combination of the several sub species and species of Eublepharis. That is my reasoning crossing them isn't bad.
Follow our progress on our facebook page (Rabid Evolution reptiles)
Rabid.Evo8691
SA Reptiles member (restricted)
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:27 am

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:01 pm

"Crossing the albino strains which is a norm in our country is a problem".
Follow our progress on our facebook page (Rabid Evolution reptiles)
Rabid.Evo8691
SA Reptiles member (restricted)
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:27 am

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Bushviper » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:32 pm

When you say that out Eublepharis are a combination of several sub species and species you are just taking a wild guess.

Do you know when the first ones were imported and how they got here?

Where are you going to apply for this research import permit? If no permits are allowed in accordance with the NEMBA regulations then you will also not be granted a permit for a project like this. If the species is not listed in the regulations then there is no reason why anybody else could not import Leopard geckos in any case.

It would seem as if you like being confrontational without giving any facts. Please tone your posts down or your posting privileges will be further curtailed.
It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Those who are afraid to ask are ashamed of learning.
User avatar
Bushviper
Founder Member
 
Posts: 17358
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:02 am
Location: Pretoria

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Docmorrie » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:36 pm

I found your posts very comical Dylan. So much arrogance with so little knowledge and experience. It is not a skill to regurgitate someone els's opinions. The skill lies in first hand experience. You have no experience with the enigma morph and this fact leaves your statements without substance and weight. I tried my best to keep this discussion as education and informative as possible, but I find it very tiring to debate with someone that is trapped in the delusion of self-appointed expertise.
Brought to you by "M.S. Living Art Geckos"

Facebook Page: www.facebook.com/MSLivingArtGeckos
User avatar
Docmorrie
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:41 pm
Location: Pretoria

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Geckotails » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:59 pm

Are you, Henry and Morne breeding the enigma strain to pure species and sub species of Eublepharis?If not you are strengthening nothing.

Please tell me, what you mean by "Are you". Cause I'm finding that offensive
Geckotails
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:59 pm

@ Bushviper- I agree nobody does know what sub species and species are combined in the common leopard gecko we have available today but breeders with many years experience in breeding for purity reasons in Europe mainly and then the States are convinced that when leopard geckos were originally wild captured and bred in captivity that those breeders never knew which species and sub species they combined hence no knowledge of what makes up the common leopard gecko today. Do yourself a favour and watch Sasobek11 video on pure sub species and species. I might not be "experienced" in a few peoples opinions but Matt Baronak is and I believe what he says over a few no names here.

I do understand that it is difficult to acquire certain permits but there has to be loop holes if people with quarantine stations can import black listed species regardless of the laws. I am speaking to people outside of the country that have dealt with certain situations similar to this before.
Follow our progress on our facebook page (Rabid Evolution reptiles)
Rabid.Evo8691
SA Reptiles member (restricted)
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:27 am

Re: To breed or not to breed: Enigmas

Postby Rabid.Evo8691 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:32 pm

@Docmorrie- What experience do you have?? 1 breeding season??? I didn't thumb suck my opinions that are set in stone now. This is what breeders like Dave, Marsha and Matt say with lots of experience to back it up with. They make excellent valid points as to why pure sub species and species are indeed genetic strengtheners like the White and yellow and Enigma strains are known as genetic enhancers.

Would a Reputable experienced Leopard gecko breeder sell Leos with muddled genetics to the public? Are you informing the general public that cross albino Leos make excellent pets but that is it??? Reptile breeding may be a business to some but I would hate to see someone invest big cash on Leos and end up with normals triple het for the 3 albino strains when they wanted to just breed Bells.

Remember that when I post sometimes directed to a persons name it doesn't mean their friends as well.
Follow our progress on our facebook page (Rabid Evolution reptiles)
Rabid.Evo8691
SA Reptiles member (restricted)
 
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:27 am

Next

Return to Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron