Arabian cobra Naja haje arabicus

Postby steve » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:49 pm

sheew awesome thread guys :D
vipers?
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Postby damiensharjah » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:56 pm

As far as I know it is, but you never know what might come up. WW took samples here about a year ago and pers-commed me that it seems to still apply. I'd be super- surprised if it reverted back to haje, as they have been separated from Mainland Africa for quite some time.

Physiologically, they differ in a number of ways. There are obviously mophological differences like paired and entire subcaudals, number of ventrals, subocculars and so on, but they are also far less chunky than Egyptians, very arborial, almost completely water dependant, pretty much high-altitude dependant..... You get the picture.

I was actually surprised that they weren't elevated to a new species.

I stand under correction on the above though and havn't read any recent published stuff.
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Postby Pythonodipsas » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:02 pm

By what your saying there seems to be enough to go on to keep it valid. Evidently they should have elevated it to full species...Naja arabicus! (that would be cool!)
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Postby damiensharjah » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:29 pm

I guess it's all about DNA now. I'll keep you abreast of any changes though.
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Postby herpaworld » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:05 pm

Pythonodipsas,

depend whom you wanna follow. i am still recognize both sub-species. Vogel & Dobiey do so as well.

Naja haja arabicus shows much higher ventral counts among others. DNA would show, but its very difficult to get some. WW ist working on it since years. as far i know, he was not able to have a microchondrial DNA Analyses done yet.

Cheers
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Postby damiensharjah » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:10 pm

He got blood from us as far as I remember. Him and Cathy came around last year sometime. I'm not sure if anything's been published though.
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Postby herpaworld » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:34 pm

yep, he does - but no laboratory time yet, means no DNA has be analyzed yet. lets see, in what cluster Naja h. arabica belongs. but for sure, she is certainly one of the most stunning species.

ill keep lots of cobra species here (19 mow), some of them are beautiful, some of them awesome, Naja h. arabice get my awesome predicate. and i would be not surprised, if they will be raised in full rank in the future. again Damien, very nice specimen and also very nice photographs. my compliments

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Postby damiensharjah » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:54 pm

Thanks mate. Good luck in finding your arabicus. Sorry I couldn't be of help in this.
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Postby WW » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:52 pm

Hi Folks,

Just back from various trips and now immersed in a deluge of teaching, marking and other stuff.

Yes, I'm afraid things move slowly on the systematics/DNA front... Getting enough material together for a thorough study takes time, so does cajoling someone to do the lab work, and so does dealing with all the cr*p that the :smt070 University system throws at us to use up our time...

:smt089
[sound of violins, please]

So no, the Naja haje stuff has not been published yet, although we are very hopeful that we will get somewhere with it this year.

As a partial sneak preview, Naja haje arabica are distinct from N. haje haje at mtDNA level, but not hugely so (much less than you would expect from looking at them), so whether one wants to call them a species or a ssp. is up in the air. N.h. legionis can be forgotten - it's just a colour form of N. haje haje. As for the rest, I'll have to keep you in suspense ;-)

Real Naja haje arabica don't seem to be in the European trade. You do see Naja haje arabica offered for sale on occasion, but every time I dropped everything and flew/drove halfway across Europe to get a sample, they turned out to be mislabelled N. annulifera (yes, really! - that batch originated in the Netherlands), or Naja haje haje from Egypt. Apparently some Egyptian dealers are trying to add a zero to the price they get for their ordinary haje by calling them "Naja haje arabica Sinai" - they ain't arabica, and there are no Naja in the Sinai. Apart from that it's all kosher, or should I say Halal. In any case, if anyone offers you Naja haje arabica for sale, make sure you get photos and scale counts before parting with cash!

Thanks heaps to Damien for giving us samples of the real McCoy!

Cheers,

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Postby damiensharjah » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:18 pm

No worries.

Can possibly add to that with some rekindled sort of cooperation with the Yemeni's (Plus we desparately need some females and so have added incentive).

Sorry you couldn't make the workshop, but I'll send proceedings in due course. If our plan works out, we'll have the whole of Arabia sampling snakes in no time just like all of our VERY ENTHUSIASTIC deligates assured us they would!! :smt015

I've also been tardy about sending you the damned field guide (Actually I've just been a bit apprehensive that you'll tear it apart) :oops:

OK. I'll FedEx it this week.

How're the Echis doing?

Cheers and Hi to CP

D
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Postby Bushviper » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:20 pm

WW you have just come back from a Caribbean holiday you should be all rested and ready to take on the world.

I see Hans-Werner Hermann is now at some institute that seems to do DNA work on behalf of customers. http://hogl.arl.arizona.edu/

Maybe he can help if the students are not getting around to it.

Cost may be a problem but Wales has lots of money.

PS check out his profile on the left side of the page and see the size of that Goliath frog. It is way bigger than a baby! You could feed a family of 4 for a weekend on that.
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Postby WW » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:38 pm

Bushviper wrote:WW you have just come back from a Caribbean holiday you should be all rested and ready to take on the world.


It wasn't a holiday, it was really hard work. Honest.
Would you take 13 students along on a holiday?
Even if most of them are male?

Cost may be a problem but Wales has lots of money.


You must be joking! North Wales is Western Europe's answer to Angola! (sorry Tony!) Actually, the University admin rakes it in, but not much percolates through to those of us doing systematic research that does not produce direct profits to the shareholders of UK plc.

Damien, the Echis are doing great, getting fatter and feistier by the week. I promise not to tear the fieldguide apart! Will be in touch about other stuff by email shortly.

Cheers,

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Postby herpaworld » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:06 pm

Hi Wolfgang,

We should go back to steady conversation?! so i dont post no bullsh.. no more about Naja...man, you are busy, lots of stuff analysed and the results calling for been published. well, let me tell you its not going to be better, ill get the O.hannah samples from Mindanao...;-)

This legionis result keeps me wondering even if it was expected... would never thought by just looking at them..

Thanks for the advice with the egyptian dealers.. we have got 4 (and friends got some too) Naja h. haje... find it out pretty soon after we hold them in hands. well, .... happens.

Is there a anti-venom development in Saudi ? They should have some arabica, if so - if they just milking them or do they have a breeding program for them? Just wondering, I would appreciate it if somebody could drop me a line..


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Postby damiensharjah » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:15 pm

The National Guard runs the Venom extraction centre there. No, they don't breed anything and good luck in trying to contact them. I've tried. :smt102
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Postby armata » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:22 pm

Welcome back WW, guess you having a nice romantic dinner with Cathy by now, well thats the least you can do!

Had a great time in UAE with Damien, and actually got to know BB a little better.

Will be stopping for a few days in UAE enroute to UK in early April.

Oh yes, you've got a bit or er..writing to do me thinks
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